Can my deck be converted to legacy with any success?
Legacy Deck Help forum
Posted on Nov. 15, 2020, 2:37 a.m. by Halbrechtt
Hey there, Legacy players! I've never played Legacy before, only Modern, and non-competitive Modern at that. My playgroup is wanting to up their game, so we're trying out "real" formats.
I have no illusion that the following deck will be any good, but I want to see if you think it could fit in at a casual Legacy table. Open to suggestions for how to make it work in Legacy (as long as all suggestions stay in theme), but if you think there's no point in even trying because the strategy could never be good enough.... please feel free to say so.
And if you simply like the idea, regardless of its worth, please leave a +1!
I present to you:
"...and Lions, Oh My!" (Modern GW Cat Aggro)
Modern
SCORE: 7 | 6 COMMENTS | 119 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
I disagree with Caerwyn assessment of Legacy. Any legacy players know that FoW is the worst card in your deck but not having it opens you up to Storm/Belcher/Oops etc combo decks. If you aren't going to be playing versus those decks then you can try other stuff. If you are then you also need to consider that turn 1 kills can happen but arent as common as people thing and disruption such as targetted discard or stax pieces can also fill the role.
Now honestly your deck wont convert well. It does not have the ability to take advantage of any of the pillars of legacy (which are Sol Lands, Aether Vials, LED, Brainstorm etc). It also doesnt compare well to any of the aggro or midrange decks such as Mavrick or Stompy.
Honestly your best bet for a cat deck in Legacy would be a Naya midrange type shell as the access to Pyroblast/Grudge/Bolt could be a real boon or a weird stompy style shell.
November 15, 2020 5:39 a.m.
jethstriker says... #4
"Modern is very much a “real” format - it’s a bit more balanced than Legacy..."
In my experience playing both formats, I can tell that Legacy is more balanced if we are talking about gameplay. It's true that the format has turn 1-2 kills decks, but it contains tools and answers (mostly not legal in Modern) to answer degenerate decks and prevent non-interactive games, usually seen in Modern.
On topic: if you want so stay "on theme", the closest legitimate build you can look to is zoo. But be informed that zoo is an outdated legacy deck when it comes to competitiveness. If you want to stay aggro, look to Delver decks, particularly UR Delver as it is the most aggro of all Delver variants.
November 15, 2020 5:50 a.m.
Halbrechtt says... #5
Thank you guys for your responses! A lot of info to chew on already. I'm not too surprised by the answers, I guess.... but they certainly show me that I have a lot to learn about Legacy's landscape.
Minor clarification of my original post — When I said we wanted to try real formats, I was including Modern in that. A better wording is "we're trying out competitive formats such as Modern and Legacy". I definitely think of Modern as just as real of a format as Legacy!
@Caerwyn (or others), would you mind elaborating on how non-blue decks can be "oppressive in their own way"? (Which I read as "competitive enough to play with the big blue dogs of Legacy".) I'm not much of a blue player, so this might be a direction I'd like to go.
@LeaPlath, your assessment gives me a little more hope. For sure I won't be playing against those combo decks at first. And perhaps my opinion of playing against such strategies will change over time, but at the moment I'm inclined to avoid playing with people who prefer those strategies.
Is there a way to modify the deck to take advantage of Aether Vial? Or if not, what are the necessary prerequisites for a deck to be able to do so?
@jethstriker, what if I'm fine playing Tier 2-3 level decks? Would Zoo or a Naya midrange shell as suggested by LeaPlath be around that level? How far off would you say my current build is from those decks?
November 15, 2020 7:25 a.m.
psionictemplar says... #6
If I were to take a stab at what caerwyn is referencing, look at things like Wasteland/Rishadan Port in goblins for example. The death and taxes strategy is another good example.
November 15, 2020 8:11 a.m.
jethstriker says... #7
Zoo is still an established deck as far as Legacy is concerned. If you like that direction, I suggest splash for red so you gain access to the most aggro of all cats: Wild Nacatl. Red also gives you access to removal and reach (Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning) and good sideboard cards (Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast and Moon effects) to fight combo (zoo's worst matchup). Load your sideboard with cards that hate on combo (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Gaddock Teeg) to round out your build.
If you would take the midrange direction, look to Maverick, Punishing Maverick build. But that would take a major redesign to your current creature list, as your creatures do not match with Maverick's gameplan (Maverick's creatures are Hatebears).
November 15, 2020 8:24 a.m.
So I think most of the discussion has already been covered, but I like to ask a different question when considering a move to competitive formats from casual: what is it that you want to keep about the deck?
Is it important for you to remain cat tribal? There are no competitive cat tribal decks in any format (except maybe EDH if you build tuned Arahbo). So, the only thing you can do is upgrade the cats and removal suite to be legacy-legal, but it's not going to be a competitive deck in a true legacy meta. That might not matter to you if all of your friends are basically doing the same thing, but it's important to keep in mind that you won't be able to bridge into a legacy meta with the same deck.
Is it important for you to keep a creature aggro deck in Selesnya colors? Some of the other commenters have this covered, but you'd be looking at removing the cat lords and making this a Zoo deck, probably in Naya colors. This also isn't a true legacy deck any more, but it's much closer. You'd be able to run it at legacy FNMs or something and put up a decent fight.
Do you just want a legacy deck that retains the features of creature aggro and some of the same colors? This is how you would actually transition into a competitive legacy deck. I usually recommend MTGTop8 to get a sense of any new format. Looking at the meta, you could make the transition into a Death and Taxes build, which retains some of the creature-flicker and hatebears approach. (You might even be able to run it back a few years, splash green, and run Qasali Pridemage.) If you like Selesyna, you might be able to run a Bant Oko deck. In a similar vein you might like Maverick, which is usually a 3-4 color Punishing Fire and good creature pile. Of course, the downside with this approach is that these are real, and expensive, decks that take a long time to learn and optimize; but you'll have a legacy deck for life.
I don't think any one approach is better than another, seriously, it's just how you want to play. If what's important to you is that your whole playgroup wants to get on a more competitive level but keep your casual roots, that's what you should stick to. But with a better idea of what your ideal legacy deck and experience would look like, we can suggest better cards!
November 15, 2020 10:07 a.m.
Aether Vial needs a critical mass of cards at 2cmc ideally. 1 CMC is a bit low impact and 2 is where the good stuff and tech cards tend to be. Vials sometimes tick up to 3 for skyclave etc.
In order to best abuse it you need powerful ETBs, effects that benefit from flash and things that give you a reason to cheat on mana like Port etc
November 15, 2020 11:53 a.m.
You also need to pick the format first, prior to deck building. Legacy and Modern are two very different metas. You will most likely not find a specifc deck that is competitive in both formats. Maybe you could get close with blue control or stax.
I would suggest trying competitive Modern first instead of Legacy. Mostly because of the costs and limited player pool you might encounter.
November 16, 2020 1:13 a.m.
Halbrechtt says... #11
Thanks once again for all the thoughts! At least I know that if I ever do seriously go down the Legacy road, there'll be helpful people around to offer advice on that journey.
I think abby315 hit the nail on the head with his questions. In answer: When it comes to the aggro archetype in general, I have no particular affinity for Selesnya, so camp 2 doesn't describe me. And in fact, aggro isn't even my favorite archetype, so that last group isn't me either. I was mostly in that first camp. However, it's become quite clear that Cats, as cute and loveable as they may be, won't be a viable deck. At least not competitively, and if the whole point is for our playgroup to sample the format, why run decks that wouldn't even have a prayer? So as to my cat deck, I'll keep it intact as a non-legacy deck and be satisfied with that.
As to what I want out of Legacy: First of all, don't worry about your suggestions being "real, and expensive, decks that take a long time to learn and optimize". Initially, we're all cool with proxying decks, so expense is irrelevant. And personally, I don't mind dropping a chunk of change on a deck if I decide I love it. I already have some of the revised duals (wish I had finished buying my playsets before these recent spikes!!) and fetches.
Second, the experience we currently want is FNM-level competitiveness. I like the description, "get on a more competitive level but keep your casual roots". That sounds about right.
Finally, as to my ideal legacy deck, let me first say this: I had heard that legacy was more of an open format, meaning that while there's an established meta, there's a lot of room for brewing and for rogue decks to actually do oK. This was in an article somewhere that I read that was contrasting it with Modern. But the more I'm hearing, it sounds like there's a limited number of strategies that will be competitive in Legacy, so there's not much point in running a deck if it's not one of these strategies. I would basically be netdecking and proxying/buying a standard list for a given build as my starting point. Does this assessment sound about right? To be clear, that isn't necessarily a bad thing; it just means I have to readjust my expectations. It sounds like I'll be doing less brewing, and more focusing on mastering whatever established deck I decide I enjoy.
November 16, 2020 2:21 a.m.
Legacy is more open in a sense. Basically you have a bunch of really strong set of core cards and you need to start from there. But the stuff you add is very open.
For example, you have the standard UW shell of 4 force, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder and a shuffle effect. This gives you game against the turn 1 decks, gives a huge amount of hand sculpting and requires you to run about 20+ blue cards. This core I have used in a UW Eldrazi Stoneblade, Infect, Jeskai Combo, Delver, Threshold, UG Madness and UW Rebels. Each deck is very diffrent but they use this powerful core of cards.
Other cores to consider are things like Nicfit which is Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy, a core that rewards running basics and knowing what is the highest impact card to name off Cabal therapy and allows rapid ramp. There is the Stompy Core which is Sol Lands + Chalice of the Void and similar stax pieces. I have played Pirate, Angel, Soldier, Human, MUD, Eldrazi and planeswalkers stompy with that shell. Aether Vial likes Wasteland and Port. LED likes flashback spells and activated abilities. Goyf likes tarfire, fetches and hand sculpting spells etc. Sol Lands + Show and Tell.
You basically choose a core and flavour it your way. There is also brewing and some really out there decks like Mono Blue Martyr but its a harder format to try new stuff in due to cost and power level. Your brew would need to amazing and undergo rigerous testing.
Caerwyn says... #2
Just doing a quick look at your deck, I do not think it is going to do particularly well in Legacy. You’re already at a huge disadvantage since you’re not in Blue - Legacy decks tend to rely on 4x Force of Will to stop early degenerate plays (it’s the second most common card in the format after Brainstorm, appearing in 51.3% of decks). Decks that don’t run FoW are still oppressive in their own way, like Orzhov Death and Taxes.
I would suggest looking at mtgtop8’s Legacy page so you can get an idea of what the format looks like.
As a note, Modern is very much a “real” format - it’s a bit more balanced than Legacy and greater ease of access. Even ignoring the price tag issues with Legacy (the ubiquitous playset of Force of Will costs more than your entire linked deck; some individual lands likewise cost about as much as your entire deck), Legacy is not overly common, so your group is going to have a hard time finding new players or finding other places to play if you feel like branching out to new groups.
November 15, 2020 4:55 a.m.