What is the difference between a combo and synergy?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 6, 2014, 5:05 a.m. by Replayced
With the addition of the combo database I am seeing a ton of comments along the lines of "that is not a combo, it is synergy". It seems that there is a vast misunderstanding (especially with newer players) about what a combo is. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge and better communication skills can clarify the difference.
I always think of Splinter Twin + Deceiver Exarch as the primary example of a combo. It goes on finitely, but for an arbitrarily large number of times.
Synergies provide a bonus, but hardly game-winning.
January 6, 2014 5:52 a.m.
smash10101 says... #4
I consider Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin to be an infinite combo. While you don't technically get infinite tokens, you do get functionally infinite, which is functionally the same thing, until someone goes infinite blockers and says, "well I have one more than you do." But yeah, that is a good example of what a combo is.
January 6, 2014 6:05 a.m.
The official TO definition:
A combo is an interaction between two cards that leads to game-ending advantage through a self-sustaining repeatable loop, an infinite loop, or a lock.
An interaction between two cards is merely some kind of synergy between their effects that works to create advantage that neither card inherently has.
January 6, 2014 7:30 a.m.
i agree with the above posters. synergy is more about cards working together like tribal cards or using a Personal Tutor to drop Temporal Mastery on top of your EDH deck for a timewalk. combo is about creating loops of effects or abilities like Splinter Twin with Deceiver Exarch
January 6, 2014 7:51 a.m.
@smash10101: I would agree, but if we go by the Official T/O definition, then I'm assuming that the aforementioned Splinter Twin combo would be a self-sustaining, repeatable loop.
Infinite loops being your Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond example.
January 6, 2014 8:22 a.m.
I would update the TO definition to say "between 2 or more cards" instead of "2 cards."
Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Viscera Seer + Murderous Redcap is very much a combo, but any 2 of them without the third (or a functional substitute) is not.
January 6, 2014 10:41 a.m.
channel+fireball is a combo, and powering out emrakul with Show and Tell is a combo, but they're definitly not infinite.
January 6, 2014 10:57 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #10
Because a Show and Tell to an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can still be prevented once it goes off. It doesn't guarantee you a win, Sam_I_am.
January 6, 2014 11:44 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #11
I also want to point out that I cannot effectively disable synergies from the combase. I don't have the authority to delete them out-right, and disabling them doesn't seem to be doing anything yet. So I have some 600 combos "disabled" with 960 more combos to filter through.
January 6, 2014 11:54 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Show and Tell
and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
isn't a combo, it isn't even a synergy. It is good value off of Show and Tell
Which does exactly as it states no more, no less.
To illustrate the difference between combos and synergy consider Thopter Foundry.
Thopter Foundry
+ Sword of the Meek
is a synergy. The foundry makes you sacrifice a non-token artifact as part of the cost severely limiting its usefulness in most cases. Sword of the Meek
gets around this with it's triggered ability allowing you to return it to the battlefield as each token is made. Meaning that you get a 1/1 flyer and gain one life for each free mana you have at the end of your opponent's turn. This is good but not game breaking.
Now to make our synergy into a combo we need to make it self sustaining by removing the limiting factor. The limiting factor in this case is mana. How can we make it so that one of the resources we are creating can be turned into a resource to perpetuate the cycle? Ashnod's Altar
, and Phyrexian Altar
give us mana for creatures. Krark-Clan Ironworks
gives us mana for artifacts. So the synergy from Thopter Foundry
and Sword of the Meek
can be turned into a lifegain combo with Thopter Foundry
+ Sword of the Meek
+ Phyrexian Altar
or a lifegain and token combo with Thopter Foundry
+ Sword of the Meek
+ Ashnod's Altar
or Thopter Foundry
+ Sword of the Meek
+ Krark-Clan Ironworks
.
January 6, 2014 11:55 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #13
I also want to point out that when you link a combo with our proper syntax (the one described in the edit your deck page is wrong) make sure the cards are in alphabetical order. Weird things happen with 404 errors when they are not.
January 6, 2014 noon
Gidgetimer says... #14
oh is that how the ordering goes? I couldn't figure it out before and they didn't seem to be alphabetical but I didn't look too hard.
January 6, 2014 12:07 p.m.
Try going to an event playing Elves, Sneak&show, Storm, Charbelcher, Countertop, NO RUG, Dark Depths, high tide, dredge, or reanimator, tell them that you're "not playing a combo", and watch them laugh at you
January 6, 2014 12:08 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #16
It is not a combo, it is a synergy. We are not putting 13 million different lists for every synergy possible here on T/O Sam_I_am. Every MTG player uses the term "combo" to define "any card that interacts with another card". We are limiting that definition to include only combos that present a game-winning situation the moment it occurs. Notice also that storm and re-animator will not be included as most of those are synergies of 6+ cards whereas we are only making the list for 3 card combos as the max.
January 6, 2014 12:16 p.m.
lord_of_the_snakes says... #17
question, would Elite Arcanist +Silence +Prophet of Kruphix be a combo or synergy, i think its a combo, since it is an infinite lock
January 6, 2014 12:16 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #18
I would consider that as a lock bantam1234. Helps especially well against decks that don't have removal, but for the most part it is easy to remove since you can respond to it and the creatures aren't all that tough. Others may disagree as the lock is the most difficult to judge considering it goes against the normal infinite, loop, guarantee win once it goes off, definition that we have. How does one judge what kind of locks go in, as many are more easier to remove than others.
January 6, 2014 12:21 p.m.
smash10101 says... #19
Yeah, locks were a sticking point in our earlier discussion. We all agreed that they should be included, but never on how to decide if something was actually a lock or not. The terms "hard lock" and "soft lock" got thrown around, but never defined.
As for the 2 card thing, Epochalyptik has agreed that combos can have more than two cards, and you can tag combos with as many as 4, but for some reason, no one else wants to put their 12 cards infinite combos in combase.
smash10101 says... #2
There is a 15 page thread dealing with that. You can find it here.
Generally, a combo is a combination of cards that creates a loop, like Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond , or otherwise creates a game winning advantage, like Channel-Fireball. For the combase, we agreed that it should include any sort of infinite combo, lock, or recursive loop. That's about as far as we got.
Synergy is where two (or more) cards combine to get more than just the sum of their parts. For example, Pawn of Ulamog + Bloodthrone Vampire, Whenever you sac something to Bloodthrone Vampire, you get an extra sac from Pawn of Ulamog, essentially doubling the vamp's ability.
January 6, 2014 5:23 a.m.