Control Theory
General forum
Posted on Dec. 11, 2012, 9:30 p.m. by HarbingerJK
I'm fairly new to Magic, having started in April 2012. I loved the game from the moment I asked my roommate to show me. A month later I was making my own Aggro decks (not knowing that there were other archetypes). Once I watched the 2010 Worlds with Guillaume Matignon and Guillaume Wafo-Tapa I realized that the type of deck that I wanted to know how to build was control.
So now I would say that I'm a student of control, and I've made three of them so far. Two of them are U/W and one is U/B...but we don't speak of the U/B one.
I'm posting this thread because I want to discuss control theory with other control lovers so I can improve my deck building and to just have some good old fashion fun talking about our favorite game.
So to kick off this thread let's start with this: how do you like to slow down your opponent?
My answer: stop his/her creatures from dealing damage
I like enchantments that punish opponents for attacking, i.e. Propaganda , Sphere of Safety , Dissipation Field , etc.
December 11, 2012 9:39 p.m.
Azorius Scuffle aggro control, keep the threats off the board while you build your mana base for your win condition. Normal control is the same thing but with way bigger and splashier creatures. Note what seperates control from mid-range decks is that control prefers to let games drag out a lot longer to exhaust the opponents resources, while you just build up yours with draw spells and such.
December 11, 2012 9:40 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #5
Cartwheelnurd I really like that UW control deck, has a lot of great cards in there
Wsebaste, I too like Propaganda and Sphere of Safety , I'm rocking 3 Sphere of Safety s in my deck Azoriusly Bro?
quietsal I like your deck too, and thanks for clarifying the difference between control and aggro control. Every time I've tried to find out the difference people have either given me twisted faces or laughed at the concept of "aggro control". I would say that I prefer control over aggro control though...I love to aggravated my opponent haha
December 11, 2012 9:48 p.m.
cartwheelnurd says... #6
or stuff like Isperia, Supreme Judge or in W and R Slumbering Dragon and Blood Reckoning , or Circle of Flame
December 11, 2012 9:49 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #7
Blood Reckoning is good one, I have three of those in a combo deck
December 11, 2012 9:53 p.m.
@HarbinjerJK haha i know that feeling, and your welcome. I remember playing a deck of nothing but counterspells, massive drawing, and creature control, and six powerful elemental creatures . My friend quit the game after two hours. Unfortunately for him i put in Reminisce so i could never run out of counterspells.
December 11, 2012 9:55 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #9
ouch hahaha I love counterspells, but I refuse to play soft counters like Mana Leak ...don't like giving my opponent the chance to resolve the spell. I'd rather use specific counters like Essence Scatter or Dispel
December 11, 2012 9:58 p.m.
Jace, Stealer of Staffs usual gameplay, I stop creatures from trying to kill me with tap effects, bounce effects, and power reducing effects, then I blow the world up for value, with a staff or planeswalker out I'm either out drawing them at least 2 to 1, resulting in having all the answers, or that planeswalker ultimates and I win (even if it takes 20 more turns of the opponent being able to do literally nothing to actually win). Tamiyo emblem is especially efficient with winning slowly as while I have one I can just blow up their lands with Ghost Quarter keeping counterspell mana up and then eventually land something after they can no longer produce mana that will finish the job.
December 11, 2012 10 p.m.
Mana Leak in my opinion is way better as a counterspell than most specific ones. for the fact that it can do the job of all of them, what you have to make sure is to keep a count of how much mana they have open. This also forces the opponent to play differently for fear of not having mana for his spell to go through. Once he gets enough to summon bigger stuff, then you should use Cancel , Dissipate , and any other spell that doesn't give them a chance to save theirs, and i find that Syncopate is also really usefull, when you have an abundance of lands and just use it to lay waste to the possibilities of them playing something big.
December 11, 2012 10:03 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #12
good point quietsal, I've never thought about the psychological effects Mana Leak could have on an opponent.
Demarge, that's an interesting deck you have there. I actually want to make a deck totally based around land destruction
December 11, 2012 10:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
Are you talking about Standard or general Magic here?
I used to play Standard a while ago, before Innistrad came out. I was piloting a homebrew UB control deck that focused mostly on kill control.
I also like control in other formats. EDH is the only one I play anymore, and I'm a huge proponent of combo-control decks. Of course, the strategy is different when you move to EDH from any 60-card format, but the essence of the concept is still the same.
December 12, 2012 12:24 a.m.
HarbingerJK says... #14
I'm talking general magic, though I usually play standard and modern mostly. I've never made an EDH deck before so I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts on EDH control.
December 12, 2012 6:59 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
EDH control can be approached in just about as many ways as 60-card control. You have the standard counterspell control, kill control, some interaction control via cards like card:Martyr's Bond, and hard and soft locks.
I prefer counterspell control with a small suite of removal spells on the side. This gives me the flexibility to answer most threats before they resolve, which is especially important in my meta. Once you get into the upper echelons of competitive EDH, everything tends to revolve around infinite combos. Failing to stop a single spell can lose you the game. You need to be quick at figuring out your opponents' strategies and prepared to control the key elements of their win conditions. Often, spells like Tooth and Nail are the catalysts for infinite combos - you may never get to see the actual combo pieces get cast before someone starts going off.
By relying mostly on counterspells for the mid to late game, I am able to manipulate more of the game than I could with purely removal spells or interaction-based control. I find that control pairs naturally with combo because the former is too weak on its own to be a finisher. EDH isn't like a normal game of Standard, Modern, or Legacy where players can go in with counterspells and either tribal midrange creatures or a handful of late-game finishers. Control needs to have a consistent and reliable way to win, and combat just isn't either of those two things when you climb into the cutthroat circles. Combo decks naturally require protection for their win conditions to be executed. Some players try to race past other threats by going all-in on ramp, but the more stable approach is to use countermagic and tutors to guarantee consistent performance.
So you have an example of what I'm talking about, most of my EDH experience comes from playing a BUG combo-control deck that combines heavy denial techniques with infinite combos and recursion loops. The deck can be found here: Dominus - Dreamcrusher Edition.
December 12, 2012 7:34 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #16
Shut down their deck. Using counterspells to stop anything deadly from hitting the field, then use kill/burn spells to stop their creatures. Board wipes for Hexproof/Shroud or against massive armies.
The key to control is timing. One wrong move could set you back. Patience also helps. Aggro are the hyper, rushed guys while control are calm and relaxed, patiently waiting to slaughter you.
December 12, 2012 9:40 a.m.
rckclimber777 says... #17
Board wipes, counterspells, draw spells, small efficient creatures, Jace, and, if you're running black, kill spells. Thats my views on control, obviously the very simplified version. Also probably my favorite archetype. I, like you, started with aggro and have since moved on to playing the art of control. Interestingly enough, I have no control decks currently except for my EDH deck. If I was gonna build a control deck though, the above is what I'd probably go with. The small creatures being Snapcaster Mage , Restoration Angel and maybe Geist of Saint Traft or to be a little off the wall Talrand, Sky Summoner
December 12, 2012 10:57 a.m.
rckclimber777 says... #18
As with any deck though you must analyze the strengths and weaknesses. In a control deck you're giving up board advantage for outright card advantage which means that your cards need to be efficient in limiting your opponent's board. This is often referred to as stabilizing. As the game progresses, the control deck will typically have the distinct advantage. If a deck fails to gain adequate board advantage early against control, then it is unlikely to do so late in the game since an aggro deck sacrifices card advantage for board advantage. So the basic strategy is to ensure that early game, you keep your opponent's board in check with one or two spells while also managing to bring up your card advantage. This is why card:Sphinx's Revelation is so good in control. It gives you card advantage while also giving you life allowing you to handle a board deficit for a little longer.
December 12, 2012 11:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
It should also be mentioned that card:Sphinx's Revelation is only good because it is an instant. It allows control players to have card advantage and minor lifegain without prematurely tapping out and leaving themselves open to plays from their opponents.
December 12, 2012 12:43 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #20
A valid point. It leaves the control player capable of maintaining card advantage while being able to play it without fear of allowing your opponent to drastically the board advantage immediately. I daresay even if it had been printed as a sorcery it would still see some play in control decks as a late game strategy, but certainly control would not be as dependent on it as it now is.
December 12, 2012 3:13 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #21
After hearing your thoughts on card:Sphinx's Revelation I think it might be an obviously superior alternative to Divination in my Azorius deck. I should be getting a box of RTR for christmas so I'll be looking for one of those haha
December 12, 2012 5:22 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #22
I also like Amass the Components over Divination . It nets you the same amount of cards as Divination but for 1 more mana it gives you a wider selection of cards. Being able to ditch that useless land in your hand late game for an additional card is great. So if you don't get sphinx's revelation that would be another choice.
December 12, 2012 5:30 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #23
I think I have a couple Amass the Components but I opted for Divination because I get greedy with my card drawing haha I want to keep every card
December 12, 2012 5:38 p.m.
Fleetfiend says... #24
Not sure if it really counts, but I enjoy Ohran Viper . Block me; kill your creature. Let me through; I get a card. I like using psychological control, by making my opponent make a choice. Other notables are Dash Hopes and Browbeat . There's some other crazy ones as well.
December 12, 2012 6:06 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #25
Browbeat kind of reminds me of Book Burning , I used to rock that in a burn deck
December 12, 2012 6:09 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #26
Dash Hopes is amazing on the soul fact that it's a black counterspell.
December 12, 2012 6:17 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #27
definitely better than white counterspells, that's for sure
cartwheelnurd says... #2
Turbofog.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/rc/195
You can update this for standard if you wish
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=3896&d=223118
That's a more standard UW control list.
December 11, 2012 9:38 p.m.