[Community Discussion]: What are your opinions about barrier to entry?
Economics forum
Posted on May 30, 2014, 4:09 p.m. by Epochalyptik
Let's face it. Magic can be expensive. If you want to get results in a competitive setting, you might easily be pressured to spring for costlier decks. Many of the top cards, especially in deeper formats, tend to cost something with double digits.
Even Standard, which is perhaps the most widely-supported format, has been criticized. ISD-RTR Standard had the highest barrier to entry in recent memory, if not of all time. Competitive players were almost obligated to play three- or four-color midrange with shocks and expensive creatures.
Granted, things have changed in the past few years. Currently, Standard is less expensive than it was. Modern has also become more open. Modern Masters helped ease the pain of acquiring some of the older staples. Recent reprints of shocks, Thoughtseize , and Mutavault improved availability and gave Standard players a way to transition into Modern.
Still, players sometimes find it hard to make the jump into competitive play in any format. Many just don't have the disposable income or spare cash to put together a tier one deck. Some aren't bothered by that fact, and some are.
What are your thoughts? Do you think the barrier to entry is reasonable? Too high? Should something be done to alleviate it? If so, what?
I'm going to state the barrier of entry isn't the price. It really isn't. It's the spikes at fnm that don't know how to play with the casuals and the casuals not willing to learn to play better. The latter due to time and or willingness to commit to the game, either is fine and should be applauded for the effort to even play. The former is the real problem. As JakeHarlow illustrates in his posts the best, the spike's want to be exclusive and win. As Rayenous illustrates in his posts, the spikes not willing to give help and information about how to be better, but state X is needed, without a reason.
All these put together turn Magic into an after thought for many people, hurting the game in general.
FNM can be fun, competitive and inexpensive, if the spikes tuned their attitude down for FNM and realize this tournament means nothing in the long run. That the real prizes and pressure and importance is in other tournaments. Where winning by any means necessary is applauded. Where being the dick and not sharing info is expected. These are the PTQ/GP/GPT/SCG/TCG events. Where winning means a lot of money or a trip to the pro-tour and a nice trophy to show off. We might actually fun for all at FNMs if we as a whole realized this. Pauper standard tournament, don't make me laugh. This is an excuse to make it even, but really isn't, because the casuals don't want to, have the time, or knowledge/help how to play better.
Tell me about the seminars you hold at your lgs on deck building, playing on the next level, card evaluation... etc... To help everyone become better players.
Drafts.... Drafts are not the answer as you imply JakeHarlow, this is where the statement 'I just feel like I'm paying to play magic' originated because the spikes would dominate and the casuals left out of the money. The casuals would rather and do spend the money on popping packs and playing a fun game at home.
These things (Because we're a small community in general, not just mtg) have made it hard for us (locally) to have FNM's on some nights. Because we can't get enough players who want to play.
On a side note, really, when I see 'Went 4-0 at FNM' in deck titles and all that, I'm far from impressed. You want to impress with your deck. Tell us how you piloted it to a PTQ win or won a SCG IQ with it. Cause that's what matters.
June 2, 2014 3:35 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #3
I feel the barrier to entry in magic is relatively low compared to other things. In any entertainment hobby you are going to spend money and while magic is tons of money for cards all hobbies have expensive aspects. In general magic is a cheaper hobby than say gun collecting or being a foodie.
I can't speak for most people but my approach to getting better at the game was to challenge the spikes at my LGS FNM to money matches. I told them I was new and wanted them to point out my mistakes and critic me after our matches so that I could improve. I come from a competitive fighting game background so magic was really easy to approach, which I liked that there was no legwork to master just straight tactics.
June 2, 2014 3:50 p.m.
I think there are two things holding people back from even trying out an IQ or other tournament again after their first attempt.
First price. When somebody hanging out at the warmachine table sees the top eight full of mono black decks, sphinx's revelation (WUG) and then a R/W/U hard control which runs a ton of shocks they assume that's what they need to win. Those cards are expensive.
Secondly it's the beating they take when they first enter. Especially for people who don't have friends to help them deck build this can be brutal. I mean, if somebody is used to playing mono green (and I mean MONO) green they will think "Do I really need overgrown tombs just for Golgari Charm? Psh, naw" but chances are they do. It takes people a while (and a few beatings from the same thing) to realize "Hey this is a threat that's gonna stick around so I'd better be prepared next time."
It takes multiple losses to learn everything your opponents can do to you if you don't memorize card lists and many people give up before then.
Standard right now is fairly easy to get into. Monsters can actually beat people up. We've got Mistcutter Hydra for God's sake! For a casual player now is one of the best times to join in. One good friend telling them "These are the 6-8 spells you can expect to kill your hydra" would go a long way.
June 2, 2014 4:24 p.m.
There are cards that REALLY need to be reprinted, just to crash the price, AKA original dual lands, fetchlands, ect., and if they are it opens up the world to more players in all formats. Modern especially needs this price slash, cuz alI got is A shock and two swords and elspeth. it's good, but not good enough. The barrier really sucks!
June 2, 2014 4:27 p.m.
Asher18 abur duals, will (99.9% sure) never have a reprint. as for fetches, fetches for president in 2015!
June 2, 2014 4:28 p.m.
gufymike. they still need to be :P. REPRINT FETCHES ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARGH!
June 2, 2014 4:33 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #8
@ ChiefBell: That's an oversimplification, but sort of right. I'll intentionally throw a FNM game in a heartbeat if I'm bored or annoyed by the crowd and then drop, especially on a Friday night when there are other things to do. If I'm going to pay to play, I don't want to run into that situation. I like my opponents to be better than me or at least on even ground, not that I'm amazing at Magic, but I have always liked competing in shark tanks and always have. Frankly, it's the only way I've ever really been able to learn.
June 2, 2014 6:18 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #10
I would argue that Spikes aren't the issue here. While I can see valid points about the competitive level of FNM, I think that's another issue entirely.
In a vacuum, people would agree on good cards. The A/B/U/R duals are good because they mana fix without drawbacks. Fetches are good because they tutor/fix your land base. Path to Exile is good because it costs W and is great removal. Etc, etc.
Cards are good inherently by design. Due to CMC = playability (esp in eternal formats), ability, and impact on the game. Whether you're a Spike or not, the good cards are sought after. Enter supply and demand, rarity, printings, etc. I could go on about the economics, but will refrain.
In summary, it's the supply of the good cards and demand of them that dictates the price on the secondary market.
June 2, 2014 6:38 p.m.
JakeHarlow At least in my scenario, what I have found its whoever has more money wins. I love Magic and I spend a ton of my free time trying to build and fix my decks, whether in real life or online. Unfortunately WoTC doesnt care how much you love the game, its whether you can shell out 300$ to build a Esper Control or Jund Monsters. It matters if you study the game and the deck types, but if your deck has no good cards in it your still gonna lose.
June 2, 2014 6:44 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #12
Smaug1007: You're right of course. Superior cards are just superior, and will win the game. But good cards usually want a good player to use them correctly. With this new modern event deck that's out, maybe WotC is understanding that players are going to need some price relief to break into some of these formats.
But in MTG, money talks. It's true...
June 2, 2014 8:20 p.m.
MilkInBags says... #13
Magic is like anything. Would you try competing at F1 with a Smart? If you want to play in sanctioned formats, be ready to pay. Unless of course you are a genius brewer who can come up with a good deck with cheap cards.
June 2, 2014 8:45 p.m.
blackmarker90 says... #14
To be honest there are multiple barriers to entry for magic. First off there is the cost of your format, secondly there is the decision to be casual or competitive, and third the atmosphere of your LGS. While the LGS May or may not make the other two decisions for you I think that this is the where the largest barrier lies. If the atmosphere of the general populous of your LGS is in inviting and helpful (let's be honest that you can't get rid of all the grouchy inhospitable people everywhere) but still competitive you will be more likely to return to said LGS. I believe there are four types of LGS out there. The only casual but friendly LGS, the only causal but full of unhelpful people, the competitive and friendly, and the every FNM is like a GP. Depending on what you are looking for in your magic career at the time will determine whether or not you will play at a game shop. I do truly feel bad for the new players that only have the type 4 LGS in their area, but if you want to soar with the eagles you can't lie with the dogs.
June 2, 2014 9:11 p.m.
I think the biggest problem with the cost of cards is not the barrier to entry, its the last 10% and cost is usually inversely proportional to percentage to complete ( Iknow that maths isn't perfect, but it makes a point). for example look at your standrd EDH deck:
Most people would be happy to pay ~$10 for their commander, after all, he/she heads up the deck. No big. And with most decks, you can make something functional for a small price. The wholde deck ends up costing $100 - $200.
Then you decide you want to make the land base more flexible. you start swapping out guildgates for shocks. In this example your general is tri-coloured. So in goes 3 shocks and hey, why not get those three filters. your deck is now performing ~20% better as you're not getting so mana (colour) screwed anymore. but the overall price of the deck has gone up say ~30%.
No you start looking into your spell base and realise that there are spells that do exactly the same thing for cheaper. You swap out your Cancel for Counterspell , your Rampant Growth has become Nature's Lore and that Staff of Nin has become a Phyrexian Arena . (so you're running a BUG general, Epochalyptik, I'm sure you can relate). Again, the price has gone up but so has the deck quality.
Then after upgrade after upgrade you are finally hitting that last 5% - 10%. And the idea of buying all of the ABU duals doesn't seem that crazy after all, I mean, you need the edge over that Sharuum the Hegemon combo player or whatever. But at this point upgrading three cards in the deck costs you 50% of the decks current value. for example, you end up paying $700+ just so you can get those 3 ABU duals. and then you need two other cards but they're only printed int Portal; Three Kingdoms. Haha, good luck with that one. You scour StarCityGames, Channel Fireball and all of eBay only to find one copy coming out of the UK or somewhere which will cost you 200 GBP (even though it's listed on TCGPlayer at $150) but you need it for the deck to be "finished". So you splash out again. I mean, you've already blown $2K+ on your deck.
All in all, I think cost comes down to A) what format you play, but more importantly B) How hard you are looking to push your deck. But in my personal experience I've found that the biggest killer is that last 10% - 20%.
June 3, 2014 4:15 a.m.
KnightFire says... #16
If you are looking to improve your results, then unless you are already getting into day 2 of GPs then there are probably cheaper ways to improve your results than adding more expensive cards to the deck. Blaming the deck is an easy way out of finding things to improve in your own play.
The article "Creating a fearless Magical Invetory" has done wonders for my play, without needing to pick up better cards.
June 3, 2014 5:20 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #17
Too much to read right now. Too late. Might read it all tomorrow, but here is my take. The entry is what keeps the game afloat. The only way to lower that entry is to print more. Ask Zimbabwe how that worked for them. If you devalue the currency (cards) then people will loose interest in the game all together. Sure some would play, but how much would a booster cost if Goyf were at $2? What if cryptic command were a quarter? Willy nilly printing would destroy all levels of the game. It is, and has been a collectible card game. Take out the collectible aspect of it, and what do you get?
The reserve list is not a popular thing for many people today, but it saved the game. Without it, MTG would probably be 15 years out of print.
If you want to play in a professional caliber poker game, and have no money, is that unfair? Just because you want it, does not make the inability to get it unfair. It should make you work harder to get/achieve. This world needs much less entitlement floating around.
June 3, 2014 5:42 a.m.
I think another factor that makes it easy for me to tolerate MTG's enormous barrier to entry is the fact that it is really just a game. If the cost to play stops balancing with the fun I have with it, I can just stop, no problem. If I can't afford a full on jousting or sailboat racing hobby, then maybe I could pick up a pet cat or watch the Indy 500 or go get a canoe and still be happy. If people don't want to play for MTG, they can just play a video game or some game using a regular deck of 52 cards. Where is the problem?
It's not like people need MTG to get a job or survive in some way. It's totally optional. That makes the obvious response to someone who finds the barrier to daunting "just do something else", which turns out to be totally viable - no need for any adjustment or consideration there, in my opinion. Any problem seems a little artificial since this is all just entertainment.
Could Wizards make more money with an easier barrier to entry? Would the current players enjoy the game more if there was a less significant barrier to entry? I'm not sure that either of those answers would be yes.
June 3, 2014 6:36 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #19
guessling not even close to enormous, but I guess it is all relative. The fact that the cards hold, and even raise in value is significant. I can build a nice fun deck for just a couple of bucks.
Did you read my post, I feel the same as you in your last paragraph. You have a good point, I don't think that market saturation would be good for business.
June 3, 2014 10:34 a.m.
Hey guys!
Great discussion. I just wanted to add my thoughts, and say that I really enjoy Magic, having played for about 9 months now. But it is WAY more expensive than I ever thought it would be. So here are my thoughts, and please take nothing personally. I am just responding to the argument not the the person. :)
Magic might have more in common that any hobby besides F1. F1 (and NASCAR) is dominated by mega corporations not individuals. Magic is marketed as a game that people can play with their friends every Friday night. More on that below. :)
As I see it, the barrier to entry is too high for the product Magic is marketing. For example, here is a copy of the text on the wizards FNM page today:
"Are you looking for a way to play Magic while meeting new friends and winning cool foil prize cards? Then Friday Night Magic is exactly what you're looking for! Try it out and discover why Friday night is the best night of the week!"
"To make it easier to participate, Friday Night Magic events are open to anyone and feature the Standard Constructed, Modern Constructed, Sealed Deck, Booster Draft, Block Constructed, or Two-Headed Giant (Standard or Sealed) formats. Running events in these formats makes it easier for new players to participate, and you only have to remember these things: Pack your deck; remember where the tournament is happening, and what time it starts."
Seems casual. Seems fun. Seems attainable.
They even give you links to the current winning decks... and then the illusions shatter.
First Modern link, first deck (Jacob Wilson - Melira PodPro Tour Born of the Gods - Modern - Top 8), current total cost: 1227.33 USD
From another page on the wizards site:
Some people play Magic just for fun, coming up with great theme decks or funny combinations of cards to play against their friends. For other players, Magic is a highly competitive game of skill, with hundreds of thousands of dollars up for grabs in professional tournaments. To others still, Magic is all about collecting and trading cards that feature breathtaking original art from some today's premier fantasy artists.
Notice what is missing from this description: For the hard-working, for the intelligent, for the skillfull player, these easily attainable decks can lead you to victory at your LGS. It is either "theme decks or funny combinations" or "professional tournaments".
But here is no "fun" & "competitive" middle ground of Magic. You either play your jank deck and take your lumps or you pony up the cash. Lots of cash.
The problem isn't that the product is expensive, it is that it is marketed as something kids of all ages can do as a fun Friday night activity with friends. Except that they will have to play against cards they can't afford. (I realize this isn't fair, and its a business decision as well, but keep reading).
When I see games that are now marketed as competitors to Magic (and sold alongside at the LGS) that come as complete sets and take the card collecting aspect out of the game (because, let's face it, that is a secondary concern for most players) I think that they will eventually have to lower the cost of the game to stay competitive -- at least to the people they are currently marketing the game towards... Now if in the future giant corporations sponsor deck building teams to compete and give them all the cards they need and make bank from the free advertisements and marketing... oh wait. That's already happening. :)
June 3, 2014 10:56 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #21
I think the strong secondary market correlates with the game's sustainability.
Also, if you are new or on a lower budget there are great ways to play this game still. Pauper is amazing when starting out. You can learn different styles in a simpler format. Draft can develop skill while still building your card pool, and for a little more there are sealed, and 2HG sealed as well. The store just needs to help newer people along by suggesting these alternate formats, and encouraging a nurturing environment from other players. It can be hard in a game with everyone trying to win, but I love teaching the game to people, and helping out. If you seem interested in the game, and I get the feeling you will continue to play, I have done stuff like give away a deck, or a shoebox of cards.
June 3, 2014 11:14 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #22
Didgeridooda's poker analogy is particularly apt. Part of me likes that certain decks take a level of financial commitment, because it keeps the game alive and also assigns importance to the deck. If you want to play at a high level, it takes more skill, and more money.
June 3, 2014 12:06 p.m.
@ Joking101:
You miss one of the things which really irritates me: vorthos players are more or less eliminated from all but the most casual formats. The only exception is EDH thanks to the highlander rule. As a player with more than a bit of Vorthos in me, I'm fine that I will likely never make a deck which will win tournaments. I'm really irritated, however, that my deck with only one planeswalker, god, or other legend will get eliminated almost instantly at FNM.
I get eliminated for paying attention to the mythos.
My favorite MTG events are more like a pizza night which happens to have a tournament in it and less like a pro tournament. If that means upping the cost of entry per event, I'm fine with it. The variety of decks and players more than makes up for a few more dollars per FNM.
June 3, 2014 12:31 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #24
Didgeridooda for President!!!
After reading everyone's thoughts it's time for me to chime in I guess.
I started playing magic about 7-8 years ago, only at the kitchen table with only my brother. We would buy packs, crack 'em, and make decks from what we collected. It was great, I still have my first elf deck from the Lorwyn starter pack. This was just a game I played with my brother, because I had other things to sate my need to compete, i.e. Football (I played from middle school through college).
Fast forward and I'm a graduate student with 2 jobs living comfortably. BUT I can no longer compete in things I loved. So I turned to Magic, a game that had great memories for me personally while I was younger.
Knowing the goals I have for myself and what I want out of Magic, i understand the barriers and I'm willing to move past them, through trading, winnings, and of course buying. This is what people are missing, everyone has different goals for Magic. For instance I like to focus my inner Spike on Modern, and Timmy and Johnny take over when I play Standard or EDH, God I love Prophet of Kruphix lol.
Some people just have ridiculous ideas for what they should be able to do in Magic without the prep. The way I see it, playtesting is like watching film on opponents. Having the right cards, whether they are directly related to your strategy, support, or sideboard, is the same as having the right equipment. You wouldn't take a kids Soccer ball and try to play in the World Cup.
tl;dr If you want to play pick up soccer, you don't need to complain about fetches.
June 3, 2014 1:07 p.m.
The problem is that people think you are required to play expensive cards to have a chance in tournaments, which actually isn't true at all. You don't even need to play a deck built for the format, as long as it is legal in that format. You just need to build the deck correctly and play correctly. Obviously, having better cards increases your chances, but depending on the format/cards involved the difference in price point may be several times higher than the difference in effectiveness.
June 3, 2014 1:08 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #26
This:
"Some people just have ridiculous ideas for what they should be able to do in Magic without the prep. The way I see it, playtesting is like watching film on opponents. Having the right cards, whether they are directly related to your strategy, support, or sideboard, is the same as having the right equipment. You wouldn't take a kids Soccer ball and try to play in the World Cup.
tl;dr If you want to play pick up soccer, you don't need to complain about fetches" - ChiefWannaHacka
June 3, 2014 1:24 p.m.
At the same time guys, to use your analogy, you probably don't expect to have to compete with your "kiddie equipment" against "pro equipment" at a local level. Yet you do in Magic. What I'm describing isn't the pro-tour. It isn't kitchen table. Its a middle ground that is missing due to cost more than skill. I understand that its a game, but it is sold as a community experience to be able to compete at FNM. FNM is the main attraction for most Magic players I know. So lets try and view the game through that lens, as well as the "kiddie" (kitchen table) and "pro" (pro tour) lenses as well.
I believe that games which remove collectability from the equation will eventually put enough pressure on Magic that they start printing more and more of the staples to compete. Or they will be outsold by games which you only need to buy cards as a set (still collectible - but not packaged to be sold in incomplete form) and develop the playing skills. I have seen the latter at my LGS for sure... the games change, the relationships stay.
June 3, 2014 1:39 p.m.
blackmarker90 says... #28
What I see it coming down to is the amount of effort you are willing to put in. If you want to be the best you have to put in the time money and effort to get the cards and playtest the deck and learn where your weaknesses are in relation to other decks in the format. If you are in willing or in some cases unable to put the necessary time in to training don't expect to compete with the upper echelon of your LGS, much less a GP, PTQ, SCG, TCG, or the PT.
June 3, 2014 1:45 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #29
@ robrone9 The problem with your argument is that it is inherently flawed. If you are saying that it is the community experience that Wizards is selling, then what does it matter that someone is playing a less than stellar deck? After losing the community may offer him suggestions. This friendly interaction maybe made him/her a better player, and they got what Wizards was selling, the experience of being part of the community. They grow from that experience, and come back better prepared. (I agree FNM and community is the lifeblood of Magic, it's something you realize as a judge) But what happens is sometimes people who have that happen to them get angry they went 2-2 or 1-3 then leave and never go back. This would indicate that those players couldn't care less about the experience, and want to win. It is when these people complain about the barrier, or what they were sold, that I think the previous scenario isn't a viable defense. You have to remember even at FNM there is usually prize support, and there will be people who want it.
I play standard for the exact reason you propose, the community experience. My inner Timmy/Johnny come out and rage. I only win with my Signal the Clans /Prophet of Kruphix deck like 3/10 times, but it's the experiance I go for. modern is another story, and I'm aware of that, so I play a deck I like/can pilot well/ and has had proven results.
As to the collectability issue, I believe you are just plain wrong. A major decision of mine to begin my foray into Modern/Legacy staples, besides playing at a high level, was that my investment wouldn't just disappear after use. If I ever find that I can no longer play, I can recoup a major portion of my investment in a lump sum, or sell it slowly for face value.
@fluffybunnypants ZOMG did I make the Wall?!?!?!?!
June 3, 2014 2:10 p.m.
Basically any hobby with a good following has some barrier to entry. The barrier to entry exists mostly because people like the game, and because many find collectible value in the older cards. I think it's a good thing that keeps the game healthy. Especially since the biggest barrier to entry is in the eternal formats, which is really determined more by the community than by wizards, seeing as they don't sell older cards.
It's not entirely fair, but there's not a lot that can be done from it, aside from wizards reprinting old staples, like they just did with the shocks, Thoughtseize , Mutavault and all of modern masters. That said, Standard is the format they will always be officially supported the most, and it kind of has to be to keep the new cards selling and keep the game profitable for wizards. Because of that, they won't reprint things that they feel will "break" the standard format (or they'll at least try not to). It would be pretty difficult if not outright impossible to reprint some of the legacy/vintage staples in standard without causing some chaos in the format. They can do things like they did with modern masters to reprint cards without breaking standard, and with the success it had, I'm sure they will do something like it for legacy within a few years.
The Innistrad/RTR block did have a ridiculously high barrier to entry compared to most standard formats, largely because of the reprinting of the shocks and the nutty power level of some of the Innistrad cards but, with Theros block being finished, it looks like Innistrad/RTR was the exception, not the rule, and (unless they reprint the fetch lands in Khans like a lot of people are hoping), I think that the barrier to entry will stabilize at a healthy level.
TLDR; I think wizards is actually doing a damn good job of keeping the barrier to entry as low as they can while still making a good profit for themselves and keeping the Standard and block constructed formats balanced.
June 3, 2014 2:57 p.m.
FalkensteinAZ says... #31
Lets talk in the context of FNM. Everyone is making sense, but the reality is that the barrier to entry in FNM is quite minimal; you may play any legal deck. What we are talking about here are barriers to success. It seems like people feel entitled to success in an activity where everyone must play to win, and every win means a loss for someone else. In a 3 round Swiss system tournament pool of 8, barring ties, someone must go 0-3, just as someone will go 3-0. Its like that.
There are multiple barriers to success, and all function simultaneously on every player. Many barriers are internal, the sole responsibility of the player who seeks to overcome them. Deckbuilding skill, technical playing skill, resource availability, and physical/mental fortitude to name a few. The only one which exists externally is the availability of resources. Thats the one that draws the hate.
When we go 0-3, what do we say to ourselves and others?
I made a lot of weak plays that lost games.
Im not sure how to design an effective deck and its costing me points.
I couldnt handle the pressure and lost focus.
Or
All these stupid $400 netdecks are making it impossible for me to win.
Has anyone else picked up an expensive deck and proceeded to get stomped? I have. While my brothers have more wins than losses playing $60 decks at FNM. Success is possible at FNM with a cheap deck.
I encourage every player who has not had the chance to play a top deck to beg, borrow or steal one and take it to FNM, the most casual of tournament settings. If that deck doesn't propel you to top 8 every week, there might be other factors blocking you from success.
June 3, 2014 4:25 p.m.
iheartblue says... #32
I would do the following:
Build up a deck over time.
If you buy that $300 dollar standard deck right before a new set comes out with cards that you want for the deck, you end up paying for cards you actually don't end up using. Find the cards that you absolutely need for your competitive deck that will be there regardless, and then once you have the base structure of your deck, using those cards you definitely want in, then you can make an educated purchase. It's happened sometimes in my experience that I'll say, buy a playset of magma jets, and then realize that born of the gods is coming out soon with searing blaze, which I may want to run 4 of instead. Goodbye $8.
June 3, 2014 10:14 p.m.
@ robrone9
I see some of the points you are making with your analogy and comparisons of advertisements to realities at the competitive level.
I think some of us are coming from really different experiences of playing this game. For me MTG has always been about a group of friends playing together - not necessarily at FNM or LGS or at a tournament. In such a case, "the game of MTG" is defined not by the tournaments, but by regular experiences within a social group or at the kitchen table. In that case, the advertisements are a little less "off" (some of them). I know the barrier to entry for tournament level play is pretty high, but for kicking around at a kitchen table it isn't too bad.
I think there could be some difference in experience too based on the local LGS. Some shops are really keyed in to the tournaments and are probably more competitive - playing at an LGS like that would probably be like preparing for a tournament. I don't think all stores are the same in that regard. My LGS has highly varied play levels so switching levels of competitiveness is as easy as moving between tables or switching out decks. There are competitive players there, but there isn't a feeling of "getting ready for the tournaments" - at least not consistently. There may be some individuals going that way, but not the whole store. I imagine that there could also be shops that are totally at the other extreme where playing at their events isn't really different than playing around a kitchen table.
June 4, 2014 1:47 a.m.
AzrielBarakiel says... #34
If all of the modern and legacy T1 staples were reasonably priced then would we not see a lot more power gaming? I mean even more than we already do, decks would be basically the same. Everyone would just play the top tier decks because they were easy to get. Kind of seems like the price being so steep adds some diversity. although yes i do find it a pain in the arse as well from a consumer stand point.
June 4, 2014 3:03 a.m.
shaistyone says... #35
I did a quick poll of the decks I have for me and my fiancee.
Standard:
Me - $187 (inflated by 3 Mutavaults picked up during M14 limited that I would trade away in a heartbeat)
Her - $44
Modern:
Me - $10 (and a 75% win percentage in a variety of settings)
Her - $83
The barrier to entry is really only a mental one. But it does depend on your creativity when it comes to building. If that isn't a strong suit for a player, the barrier becomes much more real.
June 4, 2014 1:29 p.m.
@shaistyone: care to share the $10 modern list with a 75% win percentage? :)
June 4, 2014 1:43 p.m.
shaistyone says... #37
Sure, it's Modern Goblin Bombardment.
I'm sure it wouldn't do quite so well at a big tourney, but I have induced some rage from people with $1K decks that lose to it.
June 4, 2014 1:48 p.m.
The entry barrier seems to be fair at this point. I've seen some decent cheap standard decks, such as mono red burn, U/R control/scry, white weenies do well against net decks. They dont always win, but they put up a decent fight against it.
I started a card club at my local community center to teach younger/new players how to play various card games. We originally started with 4 people. 4 years later, we got 10+ people coming. We host fnm style tournaments just for the players so they get an idea of how a fnm would be like at their local game store. They bring creative decks and we try to teach them to always think outside the box, not just for card games, but for real life stuff as well.
Right now, Im planning to host a drafting tournament for these players (they're between age 7-12) with my bulk cards from the boxes of the Theros blocks. Its free to enter and they get to practice drafting (still got to teach them how to draft). Most importantly about this draft is that they can build their own collection from the cards they draft. Since only 1st place keeps the deck, it simulates a environment where winning matters (they dont lose anything)
So far, everyone there is willing to learn (some requires me to flat out stomp them in order for them to listen to me)
June 5, 2014 4:45 a.m.
I support the barrier to entry because it forces innovation. If the enter game was saturated with only top tier decks, the game would become stagnant and boring in my honest opinion. Do I think wizards should do reprints? Yes. However, the way they are going about it is the best way. If they made a permanent solution, Modern would be nothing but Twin variants, Pod variants, and Jund. The barrier gives players the ability to be innovative with what they have or can afford. Soul Sisters is still a relative cheap deck, that in the right hands, can be a well performing deck. We often acquaint Magic to other things where the rich only succeed; however, that is simply not the cause. Modern is a brewer's paradise. Either build a cheap deck and work towards those staple decks or build up a collection of staples and make a new deck concept.
June 6, 2014 12:21 a.m.
Maybe it would bring perspective to the conversation to compare MTG's monetary barrier-to-entry to that of other hobbies.
MTG: If you are buying just singles, a modern red-deck-wins can be as cheap as $100. Granted, an affinity deck could run more like $650. Add in sleeves and other accessories, and the minimum barrier would be no more than $200, but spending could spiral up to $750.
Video Games: If I wanted to get an x-box or ps4, that alone would cost me $400. A TV to play it on would cost at least $200. Broadband internet would cost at least $50 a month. If I already have a TV and broadband, it's still more than getting in with RDW.
Warhammer: What does this cost these days? Models? Paint? Cases?
DnD/Pathfinder: I'd say $50 for players' books, another $100 (at least) for DM books. $10- $15 for dice and accessories. So, $60 to get into a game, but much more to start one.
Sports/ Golf: I have no experience in this field. Anybody play?
Actual Gambling: Poker tournaments? What do these cost at the local level?
Are there any other social/ competitive hobbies out there to compare to MTG?
June 6, 2014 8:43 a.m.
I played adult league baseball for 100 bucks a year. But I already had a bat, glove, cleats, balls and a uniform that would all cost about 350-400 as well. So yea... Everything is expensive. It just feels different to pay so much for tiny little cards I guess.
June 6, 2014 8:56 a.m.
@Korombos.
Although it makes sense to attempt a comparison of other hobbies, there is a subtle but important different for many (not all) of them.
When you purchase a PS4, you aren't just getting a video game system... you have many, many other features beyond video games. - With the $100 to $1500 (depending on the deck), you will still only have one deck, one play style, and even if some of the cards are staples in more than one deck (for that, you looking at the more expensive decks), you will still need another large investment to diversify.
The TV and Broadband, although required, are not really costs of the hobby. (I don't know anyone who has Broadband Internet, and ONLY uses it for their PS4).
You are able to play your PS4 on your own, without having to wait for Friday nights for FNM, or some other Event... or at very least, for your friends to come over. (who would have also had to buy a deck of sufficient level to play a fun game... unlike them using your PS4)
TL;DR: - You can compare costs, but without also properly comparing what you get for the costs (and often you can't), the cost analysis is meaningless.
June 6, 2014 9:35 a.m.
@ Korombos
I know where you're coming from, but your logic is kinda flawed. Your X-Box, PS4 and TV will drastically decrease in value over time. Magic Cards (especially staples) will rise in value over time. This adds another dimension to this whole financial issue. Sure you may have to invest more at the beginning, but if you invest well and clever you won't loose much once you quit.
What's bad is buying and cracking booster packs and boxes. If you go into singles only and play eternal formats like modern or legacy you will not loose out once you quit. Nearly all the staples have been rising in value (even the ones reprinted in MMA) or will start rising again once their time in Standard is over and they are out of print again (Shocks, Thoughtseize).
Standard however is another environment. Rotations are happening and Standard Staples that see no or close to no play in eternal formats will drop drastically in value when it's time. This is one of the reasons why I quit Standard and started playing Modern. Yes, the buy-in was high especially since I wanted to keep on playing a grindy midrange value deck (Jund), but: All the fetches, the goyfs, bobs, lilys and what-not have been rising and rising in value since I bought in. So not only have I made a good investment I also get to play with awesome cards and have lots of fun.
My advise: Quit Standard, slowly build up a good T1 Modern deck (I didn't buy my Jund deck in one sweep, it took my somewhat close to 6 months) - maybe one that you've tried in various f2p online platforms - and never regret the decision.
June 6, 2014 9:36 a.m.
@Putrefy .
The term "Barrier to Entry" precludes possible long term advantages and possible investments.
"Barrier to Entry" refers to the costs, issues, restrictions, and short term negative effects which prevent someone from entering a given field (in this case MTG... possibly specific formats).
The long term investments may make for a good reason to find ways to overcome the Barrier to Entry, but they do not change or negate the Barrier itself.
June 6, 2014 9:45 a.m.
HydrophobicFish says... #45
Potential solution? What if Wizard were to print budget versions of expensive cards? Maybe to replace shocklands, there are CIPT lands that count as basics, but always are tapped. To replace Goyf, maybe we get a guy who starts as 5/5, but gets -2/-2 for each basic card type not in a GY? We already have plenty of versions for fetchlands that are budget friendly.
Korombos, your analysis of the other hobbies isn't quite fair. For instance...Pathfinder/DND, you really only need dice (and beyond that, who doesn't have a huge bag of dice to loan?). All the books can easily and legally be found online, and even barring that, to play it you don't need the DM handbook, just the player's.
Video games: Who doesn't already have a TV that's looking to get into video gaming?
June 6, 2014 9:45 a.m.
er... that should have been @ Putrefy.
I don't think the cards Putrefy has much to say on this topic.
June 6, 2014 9:46 a.m.
My point is that hobbies cost money. Everything has a barrier-to-entry. MTG might cost more than some, but less than others. A hobby is a pastime. How much do you want to pay to whittle away the spare time in your life? Do you get a sense of achievement that makes it seem worthwhile?
@ Rayenous TV and internet are indeed part of the cost of the video-game-console hobby. Many people don't feel the cost from them because they might own them already, but they are still required to play.
As for multiple uses, that does not change the cost, although it helps to justify the cost.
As for people to play with, that's only part of barrier-to-entry if you factor in travel costs and the like, which would apply to other hobbies as well.
@ Putrefy Although return-on-investment might matter for some, and it might soften the psychological blow of realizing how much you've spent on cardboard, it's still not part of barrier-to-entry.
June 6, 2014 9:49 a.m.
If you already have a TV, and are already paying for the Internet, then they are not a part of the barrier to entry cost.
If I used to play another TCG and had proper sized sleeves, dice, counters, etc... then they would not be a part of my cost, in terms of Barrier to Entry" either.
I know very few people who don't already have a TV and Internet... those I have met that do not, are no where near even considering getting a PS4 as a hobby.
Also, you are viewing "Barrier to Entry" as financial only.... "As for people to play with, that's only part of barrier-to-entry if you factor in travel costs and the like, which would apply to other hobbies as well."... - Not every barrier has a financial aspect or can be remedied by money.
Your comment to Putrefy is self contradicting. Although I initially agreed with the point you were trying to make, you convinced me otherwise... The "Psychological Blow", for many players IS a major Barrier to Entry. - If people can show others how to negate the Psychological Blow, the Barrier can be reduced.
June 6, 2014 10:05 a.m.
@Rayenous: Time is money. How you spend your time can determine how satisfied you are with your hobbies. $40 for a video game that gives you 200 hours of gameplay is a pretty good deal. Or $20 to see a movie in a theater is something many people enjoy. $4,000 on skiing equipment, tickets, and travel costs? Some people don't even hesitate.
A lot of people view Magic in a similar fashion, myself included. The $40 I spent years and years ago on two Wasteland s? Even if I ignore their current price, I've definitely gotten more than 200 hours out of them than I would have gotten out of a brand new video game. How about those that buy new Standard decks each block at $300~$500 each time around? Plenty of those players have gotten hundreds, if not thousands, of hours from their decks. There's guys at my shop who will show up to each Standard tournament every time there is one, which includes Friday, Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday. They spend more time playing Magic than they do video games.
I think you make a valid point regarding video games often coming with other features, especially with PCs. However, I disagree that those features factor into what people consider when investing into those types of entertainment. People tend to value how they spend their time and if they're satisfied with that experience. Some people will enjoy the features that come from owning a Wii or PS4. Others, like myself, would rather spend that money on Magic because it's a more enjoyable pastime.
June 6, 2014 5:34 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #50
I like seeing everyone complain about how Modern is expensive then proceed to say that standard money cards hurt the wallet. Every year.
Seriously, just buy a modern deck for $1000, buy like, 1 or 2 cards each new set maybe.
Rayenous says... #1
Although there is a definite Financial Barrier, I would like to touch on the idea of the psychological barrier for some formats.
Upon attempting to delve into a format, there are a number of things to consider.
What decks/styles are viable?
Of those decks, what ones would I enjoy playing?
What level of competition should I expect at my Meta?
Will I be able to find the cards required for the deck(s) I would like to play?
What level of support can I expect from players at my LGS?
Every format (to varrying degrees) has these questions to be answered, and they aren't all questions you can just hop online to find the answers to. - If you have a Meta that isn't 'friendly' to outsiders (and I don't just mean 'pleasant', but supportive) than many people will be put-off, and feel like it's too elitist or competitive. (Often because it is elitist and competitive)
When I first played in a Modern format, it was with a BUG Infect deck combo deck. - Reason... it was cheap! I had most of the cards I needed... but there were a still a few Expensive cards that I saw in every variation of my deck... namely Verdant Catacombs and Noble Hierarch . - There were also a few common/uncommon cards I did not have (because I was not playing during those print runs)... namely... 4x Might of Old Krosa and 1x Vines of Vastwood .
Oddly, I was able to get my hands on the Verdant Catacombs in very short order. I has the opportunity to get 2x Noble Hierarch , but I decided to go "all-or-none" on them.
I could not find commons/uncommons, because they are just not cards people carry around for trading. I also wasn't going to pay more for shipping than the cards were worth... especially since I hadn't even had a chance to play the deck yet.
When I finally had a deck... that's when things got odd. - I went to an FNM and asked someone to look over my deck. - BAD MOVE. The guy started off with a couple basic comments, but quickly went off on a very obnoxious rant of how I couldn't possibly win without "this card", and would lose to "this match-up" without a specific sideboard card.
Although he was the worst of the bunch, there were many others who did nearly the same thing... and these were the same people who said they didn't want to be bothered going through their old uncommons to trade with me. - At best, I had people who refused to comment. (This was actually quite acceptable.)
This is a great example of a barrier to entry that has nothing to do with finances, but the personality of individuals, and the general setup of the Meta.
On a brighter note of the above story.... I ended up making top 4 on my second time out with the deck.
Adding a few cards they didn't expect, and not showing anyone the deck made things go my way. - I still run Prey's Vengeance over Might of Old Krosa .
Now I have figured out who I can approach for deck discussion and actually get a discussion.
For those of you reading this, one note: It's never good to just say "You shouldn't run Card X", without saying why... it won't help anyone. If it's already in the deck, there was a thought process that put it there... you need to explain why you think it shouldn't be there, or you're just going to come off looking like a jerk.
June 2, 2014 3:16 p.m.