Daedalus19876 Here's my deck. I currently have too many cards in the deck (106). I also have some other cards that could be useful.

My deck does not entirely involve Hapatra or combos with things like Yawgmoth. I also included cards ( creatures ) that on their own are very powerful and put my opponent under pressure.

Like: Knight of the Ebon Legion, Nessian Boar, Sisters of Stone Death or Questing Beast.

If you could give me your thoughts about my decklist and help me reduce it to 100 cards would be much appreciated man.

Cheers <3

IzmAYAYA: The best advice I can give is that high-power creatures are not very powerful: life totals matter a lot less than in EDH. For example -- Nessian Boar is an actively awful card in EDH, because your opponent will almost always be happy to get a bunch of cards, especially since they can plan around it (because it doesn't have haste). And even if it goes through -- who cares about 10 damage? It's only 1/4 of a single opponent's life total (or, put another way, 1/12 of the total damage you'll need to do over the game). So cards like Knight of the Ebon Legion, Nessian Boar, Questing Beast, Lovestruck Beast, etc aren't very good in 40-life multiplayer, because the type of pressure you have to apply is different.

Sisters of Stone Death CAN be fine, but she's very VERY mana intensive. I'd only run her if you run a lot more ramp.

I'd also tentatively recommend against Skinrender, because it only gets you a single snake. Still, depending on your meta, it can be pretty sweet.

I'm not a huge fan of Vampiric Rites or Awakening Zone, I find they're both a bit slow and high-mana for what they do.

Both of your PWs seem... so-so, and too high-cmc; if you want to run a planeswalker I'd recommend Vraska, Golgari Queen. She did good work for me once upon a time, since you can protect her well, she draws cards by sacrificing excess tokens, and her third ability is absolutely brutal.

I didn't love Uncage the Menagerie when I ran it (remember that all the creatures have to have cost exactly X, no more and no less). But it might work better for you, keep me updated on it.

I'd highly recommend Eldrazi Monument if you can afford it.

Finally, I'd generally recommend lowering your curve. My deck barely gets away with 34 lands and 13 other mana sources, and I have a much lower curve than you. I would suggest starting with 35 lands and at least 5 mana rocks/dorks, and work from there. I'd aim for an average CMC around 3 -- anything over 5 mana should threaten to win the game IMMEDIATELY, within a turn cycle or two.

Hope this helps! (Oh, and you can mark a deck's format as "Commander", and put the commander in the correct place by typing [asterisk]CMDR[asterisk] on either side of her.)

Daedalus19876

Hey man big help, thanks. I'll work on my decklist and let you know once that's done.

Also, one "issue" I have is that I don't want to spend too much money on this deck. I already ... kind of lost a bunch of money already and I don't want to feel like I bought an entire deck that is not working or a deck I don't find fun to play.

That being said, some of the cards are "bad" cuz of that since they are cheaper than 5/10/15$ cards that "should" be more powerful.

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers.

Daedalus19876

I think I'm pretty happy with my decklist now.

36 lands 6 mana dorks CMC 3.14

What do you think?

I think it's MUCH closer! I'm a fan :)

Just be cautious, because your global -1 placement effects will wipe out a lot of your mana dorks. It's a tricky balance -- which is why I only run BSZ and Soul Snuffers at the moment in that role.

Daedalus19876

Gotcha man! <3

My friends told me that I lack huge creatures. They told me that in EDH the game is usually slower than other formats and that you can use much more high-mana cost creature (5+) just because the games are longer.

What do you think about that?

IzmAYAYA: My response -- If you rely on big creatures to win the game, you haven't sufficiently optimized your deck yet. Big creatures are inefficient -- even a 10/10 needs evasion or trample before it's a threat, and gives players four turns each to answer it. If anything, your deck should be MORE resilient to opponents' big things, since you have a bunch of replaceable deathtouchers.

If you're dedicated to combat victories, I'd much rather win with a big group of small creatures, since it has less vulnerability to removal, blocking, etc (and it's easier to pump with things like Overwhelming Stampede, Overrun, Craterhoof Behemoth, etc).

Daedalus19876

I see what you mean. Tho, do you think my decklist will generate enough tokens?

IzmAYAYA: I think it probably will :) you're running a LOT of things that make -1 counters, and more things that create tokens of their own. If it doesn't, that's something to tweak in the second draft ;) but adding more stompy creatures without synergy definitely won't fix that issue.

Daedalus19876

Nice Nice ! <3

I really appreciated your help man <3

I can't wait to try this deck out!

Cheers! <3

Daedalus19876

Hey man, I was wondering a few things.

• Scenario 1: My opponent has one 5/5 and I got on the board Yawgmoth + Hapatra + 1 token + Cutthroat.

a) Can I put one -1/-1 counter on my opponent creature X times where X is greater than 5?

b) My question is, can I put an "infinite" amount of counter on a creature even though it should have died at some point? Or am I "forced" to stop after 5 times, since we consider the creature dead and I can no longer put -1/-1 counters on it?

c) During the process of putting -1/-1 counters, you told me last time that my opponent cannot prevent me from activating his abilities. So for example, if he asks me to sacrifice a creature or blast Yawgmoth for 4, I still can activate his abilities as much as I want and as soon as I stop, he will then die, is that right?

d) What would happen if my opponent instead of targeting Yawgmoth decide to target Hapatra, Cuttthroat or the token? Can I still activate Yawgmoth abilities whether it's an infinite amount or 5 times? If a creature should be put in a graveyard can I still put -1/-1 counter on it even tho its life has been reduced to 0 or below before its moved in the graveyard?

• Scenario 2: My opponent does not have a creature or his creature has shroud.

a) Can I target an infinite amount of time Cutthroat, the token or Hapatra? Or as soon as one of the creature life is reduce at 0 I must stop no matter what?

TLDR: Is there a rule that states that I cannot continue to put -1/-1 counter on a creature even tho its base life has already been reduced to 0 or below? When do we actually check if a creature has died? Can I get into combat phase and then as a response activate Yawgmoth abilities and THEN the blockers and damage are effective?

I'm wondering if I can activate Yawgmoth abilities an infinite amount of time on the stack before the damages are made.

For example, We've got 2 2/2 in combat. They are both supposed to die. Let's say you give it +2/+2, can I only activate Yawgmoth abilities 4 times or more?

Thanks in advance ahah :p

IzmAYAYA: In order --

1A and B) No, unfortunately you can only put 5 counters on a 5/5 -- once it's dead you can't keep piling -1 counters on it. This kind of thing is actually why, to go properly 'infinite', you need something that gives your own creatures additional toughness (so you always have something to put the -1 counters onto).

There is a very minor exception to this, when using an effect like Grim Affliction: the proliferate on that spell can pull a creature's toughness below zero, because the "dies from zero toughness" state based action isn't checked until the spell finishes resolving. But before you ask, no, Yawgmoth's proliferate doesn't work the same way.

1C and D) Basically, what you want to do is execute the loop by having TWO tokens on the battlefield. You start the loop by sacrificing one token, they cast removal, and with their removal still on the stack you start another iteration of the combo using the second token. This works no matter which creature they target.

2A) For the same reason as 1A, you can't target anything an infinite number of times with Yawgmoth unfortunately. You only get to place as many -1 counters as there are points of toughness. This is why things like Ivy Lane Denizen are good (your creatures always "gain" a toughness to offset the one they lost), or effects like Spidersilk Armor (you can "bounce" the counters between two snakes, and never run out of things to target).

3) While you can't execute Yawgmoth infinite times targeting the same thing, you CAN use him to screw with combat math pretty well -- you can sacrifice some of the blocked creatures to shrink blocking creatures, and make them vulnerable to lethal damage. Still, this isn't usually relevant, since Yawgmoth immediately wins the game maybe 90% of the time he hits battlefield in this deck.

Alright, thanks I get it. Yawgmoth is pretty busted ... but not too busted, right? :D

There's still one thing I'm not sure to understand. It's the 1C)D) part. This is confusing to me. I'm not sure to understand why I need 2 tokens.

Let's say my opponent has a 5/5 and he knows I'm going to destroy it by putting 5 -1/-1 counters on it.

What happens if: a) he decides to blast Yawgmoth or one other creature before I do anything? I guess I can respond to this spell, right? But how many times tho? Can I activate his first ability once and put 1 -1/-1 counter on my opponent creature and then we consider the spell resolving or can I do it 5 times and then his spell resolves?

b) he, for example, lets me put 3 -1/-1 counter on his creature and then he cast a spell to stop my combo. Can I, in response activate Yawgmoth ability just once or twice more?

Daedalus19876

IzmAYAYA: Well, when you have Yawgmoth and Hapatra, you only get a new snake once the ability resolves. There's a window of time where the snake has been sacrificed, you've paid the life, but no -1 counter has been placed and no snake has been created. If they use a removal spell in that window, you won't have another snake to sacrifice to continue looping... unless you started with at least 2 snakes -- is that a clear explanation?

a) So if I have only one snake and I decide to pay 1 life, sacrifice it, THEN an opponent uses a removal, they will either remove Yawgmoth or Hapatra and there's nothing I can do about it, right?

1. -If they kill Yawgmoth => no -1/-1 counter, so no additional snake
2. -If they kill Hapatra => I can put a -1/-1 but I don't get a snake

b) And if I have 2 snakes or more, I'll pay one life, sacrifice a snake, THEN an opponent uses a removal.

1. -If they kill the second snake => I'm good, cuz I can put a -1/-1 counter and have another snake.
2. -If they kill Yawgmoth => no -1/-1 counter, so no additional snake
3. -If they kill Hapatra => I can put a -1/-1 but I don't get a snake

So the worst scenario is if I lose Yawgmoth > Hapatra > a snake.

In your answer, you only considered losing a snake (I guess?), so I don't know if the scenarios I described above are correct.

Daedalus19876

IzmAYAYA: Nah, what I was saying applies no matter which creature they target with removal. If they target removal at Yawgmoth, in response to their removal you can start the combo back up with a second snake.

And you can execute the whole combo, as many times as you want, at instant-speed before the removal resolves on Yawgmoth. The only difficulty is that you won't be able to cast anything sorcery-speed. But you can dig to find Chord of Calling or Heroic Intervention or Veil of Summer to either 1) prevent their removal, or 2) win the game on the spot, before their removal resolves.

"in response to their removal you can start the combo back up with a second snake."

Wait, wait, wait, what are you saying is that if they cast a removal on Yawgmoth, that means they stop my first combo? I mean, after sacrificing the first token and paying 1 life, I can't put a -1/-1 counter and draw a card. In order for the second part to resolve (putting a -1/-1 counter and drawing a card) I need to start a second combo, meaning I need a second token to sacrifice.

"And you can execute the whole combo, as many times as you want, at instant-speed before the removal resolves on Yawgmoth."

So does that means that if I have a second snake, I can combo as much as I want and as soon as I stop, the removal resolves?

(sorry for making you trying over and over again, English is not my main language :c )

Daedalus19876

Daedalus19876

Could you maybe try to explain with an example please? Like:

• Yawgmoth / Hapatra / 2 tokens on the board
• Opponent uses a removal on X
• I can respond to the removal by ...

I will understand better that way.

IzmAYAYA: I might ask in the rules section of the site, they should be able to explain it better than I can.

But in your example:

Yawgmoth, Hapatra, 2 tokens on the board. My opponent has a 5/5 (for example).

I pay 1 life and sacrifice a token to Yawgmoth's ability, targeting their 5/5.

In response to Yawgmoth's ability on the stack, they cast Swords to Plowshares on Yawgmoth (or Hapatra, it would work the same either way). Stack is (top to bottom) Swords, then Yawgmoth activation #1.

In response to their Swords, I pay 1 life and sacrifice the other token, targeting their 5/5 with my Yawgmoth. Stack is (top to bottom) Yawgmoth activation #2, Swords, Yawgmoth activation #1.

Presumably, they don't have any further removal. The top Yawgmoth activation (#2) resolves. A -1 counter is placed on their 5/5 and I draw a card. Stack is Swords, Yawgmoth activation #1.

A -1 counter was placed, so Hapatra triggers to make a snake. Stack is Hapatra trigger #1, Swords, Yawgmoth activation #1.

Hapatra's ability resolves. I now have one snake (in addition to Yawgmoth and Hapatra). Stack is Swords, Yawgmoth activation #1.

I hold priority, then pay 1 life and sacrifice the new snake token to activate Yawgmoth, targeting their creature (now a 4/4). Stack is now Yawgmoth activation #3, Swords, Yawgmoth activationn #1.

Rinse and repeat as necessary. Hopefully, you draw into Chord of Calling or Heroic Intervention, which you can cast at instant speed before Swords resolves.

You never let their Swords resolve until you're done with your combo, because you're creating and sacrificing snakes with the Swords on the stack.

Note that, when Yawgmoth activation #1 finally tries to resolve, it will be countered because the 5/5 will (presumably) be dead and the ability will thus have no legal targets. You will not draw a card from Yawgmoth activation #1.

Daedalus19876

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay I seeeeeeee nooooooooooooooow Thank youuu man :D <3

Do I always have the priority to activate his abilities tho?

Like, right now the scenario you described is you activate Yawgmoth first. Does that changes anything if I cast him, he's on the battlefield then for some reason I don't activate his abilities instantly and my opponent cast Swords to Plowshares first. can I still respond the same way above?

IzmAYAYA: Yes, it works the same way.

For (nearly) every action in the game, priority gets passed around the table before that action resolves. Whenever you have priority, you can activate Yawgmoth's ability, and begin a loop.

Daedalus19876

I see, I see. Well I don't have any other questions. I wanna thank you again for your answers and your patience also. <3

I think I'm going to have a lot of fun playing this deck! <3

Cheers~

Daedalus19876

Hey man, I'm sure you saw the new Ikoria cards. What do you think of those new cards? Like, to me, it feels like the mutate ability is very strong and I fear that my Hapatra decklist won't stand a chance so I wanted to have your thoughts about it. Right now, I'm not sure I want to buy/play an Hapatra deck or try those new cards..

IzmAYAYA: I don't think Mutate will make a huge splash in EDH. It's a format with too much removal, and Mutate will always get you 2-for-1'd. I say this despite building a deck around it, because it's such a bizarrely cool thing XD

There's at least three or four powerful new cards in this set for Hapatra, which should make her more powerful as well! Plus the counter focus, which gives us some new directions to go. I would say this set made Hapatra better, not worse :)

Daedalus19876

I see, I see. So I guess I should focus on my Hapatra deck then. What are the cards you have in mind that could be a good thing for my decklist then?