Should Tarmogoyf Be Banned In Modern?
Asked by Halidir_Orveck 13 years ago
If Wizards has no qualms about banning cards at will from this infant format such as Wild Nacatl and Stoneforge Mystic , Sensei's Divining Top]] and the dreaded user:Jace,%20the%20Mindsculptor, Why is it that Tarmogoyf still around?To me Goyf represents the very worst of offenders, 1. He is cheap with converted mana cost 2. He is unfun to play against, what's the best answer for a Tarmogoyf ? another Tarmogoyf . 3. As he was a card that has only been printed once, in Future Sight (god I hope there isn't more cards like it.), there is a very limited number of them which drives the price for him through the roof. In the last year I have seen him jump from price of $50.00 to $100.00 at my local card shop. My 4th and finally complaint is that any deck that runs green mana producing lands, wants 4x Tarmogoyf , you run Naya Zoo? 4x Tarmogoyf , you run a tempo Simic Agro Control? 4x Tarmogoyf , You have Jund? 4x Tarmogoyf . I would like to state for the record that I am not Timmy Kitchen Table Top, I love FNM's and Star City Opens, I had a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic . I am not hating on Tarmogoyf because he is very good or costs too much cash. I am just calling for something to be done about a card that is Unfun to play against, insanely cheap for his amazingness, very difficult to acquire for the average tournament goer, and his prevalence in almost all decks that can play him.Thank you for your time.
Halidir_Orveck says... #2
Sorry for the wrong forum lol, and what I mean by unfun is it's abundance in decks and the fact that the best answer is usually your own Tarmogoyf . And another thing about unfun isn't disruptive and control, I mean oh look a green land, let me guess 4x goyf? oh how did I know?
January 5, 2012 4:57 a.m.
Halidir_Orveck says... #3
plus Force of Will is an amazing card, but in my opinion is that it is not broken because it can be countered its self, and it isn't the worst thing that could happen, It's no Mana Drain .
January 5, 2012 5:01 a.m.
Halidir_Orveck says... #4
and yes price does effect how wizards feels about a card, they talk about it when what to reprint and it is unhealthy for any format to have a staple cost $100.00 a pop.
January 5, 2012 8:37 a.m.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but the excuse that Force of Will can counter itself is not what keeps it from being banned, if this was the case then Mental Misstep would still be allowed in legacy. The fact is that Force of Will makes you 2 for 1 their spell seems to be the key piece for me when I look at it, you have to discard also which considering it is the key piece of their combo or some such may seem like a good deal at the time but its not a win-win situation.
Getting back to modern though I do believe that with the amount of bannings going on we could see a ban on Tarmogoyf or maybe it could be restricted but that seems unlikely to me.
January 5, 2012 11:39 a.m.
MATTSCOTTR says... #6
I feel Tarmogoyf isn't that degenerate to the format and deserves to be banned. There's more answers to Tarmogoyf than playing another Tarmogoyf . Kill spells (choose your favorite one) Meddling Mage , Nevermore , Spell Snare , exiling in different ways, graveyards or Tarmogoyf itself etc. A card deserves banning when it starts to phase out decks completely, i.e. Mental Misstep completely phased out decks in legacy and would do so again in modern (Zoo would basically suck). Tarmogoyf doesn't have that type of power. He's a manageable threat. Yeah the cards expensive and hard to find but that's just how some cards in older sets turn out. If a card can be played in a multiple format setting and becomes a staple in a those formats the value is going to maintain a certain level or increase. That just happens and I think WotC doesn't do enough to effect the market because they try to appeal to collectors. In the end banning isn't the answer, innovating is.
January 5, 2012 11:47 a.m.
rckclimber777 says... Accepted answer #7
I think the best argument you have is the fact that it appears in every deck that has green in it. I remember they based their decision on banning mindsculptor due to the fact that it was appearing in any deck that ran blue in every tournament. I think that 80% of the decks before it was banned were running mind sculptor. If he gets to that point I'm sure that he'll meet up with the banstick soon enough.
Something else to consider however is the fact that banning of goyf will rock it's market value. I have a feeling that while Wizards doesn't solely base their decisions on how much players have payed for cards recently, I'm sure they take some consideration into it. They seem perfectly happy to let some overpowered cards continue on in the format as long as they're not being abused. IMO Mindsculptor should have been banned well before it was. It was typically miserable walking into an FNM knowing that I was about to face 2-4 matches that were running mindsculptor so much so that I stopped going until after it was banned.
All this aside however, wizards has been banning cards in modern like they have nothing else to do lately. The choices however, have been rather surprising in some cases. Not always the overpowered cards, but rather the cards that support those overpowered cards. I'm beginning to think they want us to use those overpowered cards in new ways.
January 5, 2012 11:53 a.m.
Halidir_Orveck says... #8
I think that is a valuable point but i do remember a time when legacy was a wild west full of bannings
January 5, 2012 12:06 p.m.
Another elegant answer to most problem cards is a well timed Extirpate . Its lesser Surgical Extraction is also a good choice. Although these might not be a good main board choice, they definitely have a place in any side board which they can occupy.
January 6, 2012 5:34 a.m.
Halidir_Orveck says... #10
I think the fact that we as a community have to tech for a single card that we know is going to be in conservatively 50% of the decks we will face face and liberally up to 75% of them, is evidence alone that something is wrong. I know all the Zoo, Tempo, and Agro players are going to say he isn't broken but and maybe it Mr. Tarmogoyf isn't broken, but the fact that he sees a playset in every single deck that is green. actually I take that back, every deck that the player can afford them. Compare Snapcaster Mage to Tarmogoyf , they both see a ton of play in their respective formats, however they are powerful for two very different reasons. Snapcaster Mage is an enabler, he causes one off things to happen. My personal favorite thing to do is to flash him in, to chump him into an attacking creature, get the morbid trigger then flashback a Brimstone Volley netting me say 3 or 4 life from damage from combat and then 5 damage to my opponent for a total spread of up to 10 life! that is huge. However Tarmogoyf is a tank. you tap your mana for him then sit him down, that is about the most thought he takes to use. his power and toughness continues to rise as you go along the game you crack an Arid Mesa +1/+1, eot you Lightning Bolt your opponent +1/+1, at your turn you cast an Bloodbraid Elf and cascade into a Blightning +1/+1. That could all be done in two turns! Tarmogoyf sits on the table and continues to get stronger and stronger and requires no further direct interaction other than the occasional Spell Snare or Rune Snag to keep him alive
January 6, 2012 6:43 a.m.
AlecBazzelle says... #11
Tarmogoyf should be banned for the same reason that Treasure Cruise and dig though time was banned for. It was far too powerful because it passively got better, it saw play in any deck with its colors, and decks have splashed the colors for the card alone.
April 1, 2015 10:44 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@AlecBazzelle: Please read the post dates before commenting. This thread is three years old.
Epochalyptik says... #1
The Q&A section is for rules-related posts, not discussions. For this, you want the general forum.
Modern still seems to be an experiment at this stage - WotC is still figuring out what is or isn't "good for the format." I personally don't agree with some of their ban choices, but it seems to have retained interest in the format thus far.
Having no experience playing Modern, I am not fully qualified to answer this question, but it does seem like Goyfs are a bit too good. Then again, Force of Will isn't banned in Legacy. Just because a card is powerful, expensive, or difficult-to-find does not mean it should or will be banned. And there are a lot of people who would argue that control is not fun to play against normally, let alone with 0-drop counters.
January 5, 2012 4:48 a.m.