Made Yisan as soon as he came out. I love him.

I honestly feel he is a solid to upper tier 2. One color, and commander dependent being the reasons I would hold him out of tier 1.

In tier 1, we also have Arcum, who if we're basing it off of color identity and being commander dependent, should be moved down as well. (He should be moved down anyway in my opinion but he's reasonably strong, and I can see the argument for keeping him up there.)

I remember my first prerelease. It was M15.. I . They ran out of black kits, so I took a green one... My seeded pack rare, was Yisan... I did very poorly at that event... But that was when I first learned the concept of value...

This concludes random memories from Dredge4life...

Strawpoll

Just want to see what the general consensus is on Yisan.

I was against putting Yisan in T2, so obviously my estimation of him is a bit skewed...

Can Yisan win consistently when denied its commander? Obviously most of the effects that shut down activated abilities or keep you from casting certain cards are artifacts and enchantments, which mono-green will have no problem answering, but decks might start packing more packing more answers to Yisan. Linvala, Keeper of Silence can be run in any white deck with no downsides, and there are plenty of other options here.

I'm hesitant to say something it T1 because of it's success in a tournament if the meta might immediately shift to accommodate it.

I honestly would never say Yisan is tier 1.

he's certainly at the top of tier 2, but he simply can't kill as consistently and mainly early as the others, and even when he is there's so many ways to shut him down in any given color its insane. He can get out of hand if not answered, but so can many other commanders, and unlike most on tier 1, he also isn't in any of the colors to help deal with the things that stop him.

1. Green is the second strongest color on its own after blue.

2. @sonnet666: Yisan actually hurts less from being denied its commander than almost any other deck in the format. The deck is highly synergistic and can combo out fairly easily without its commander, or simply win the long game through value and having the biggest creatures. Compare to Arcum or Azami, who are also mono-colored, but are dead in the water without their commander, yet are currently in Tier 1.

@NarejED uuuh, no. black is second after blue, then green, then white, then red.

@DERPLINGSUPREME: Wrong on two placements. The correct order is Blue > Green > Black > Red > White for standalone colors.

Black has great card advantage and creature removal tools, and decent ramp, but it struggles to remove artifacts and enchantments. As a standalone color, it's weak to too many things to beat out green. Red beats out white purely due to white's terrible selection of available commanders. Daretti outclasses anything mono white has by a full Tier and a half.

I have a question. Why is karador teir 1?

@DERPLINGSUPREME Blue and green are the best colors by a country mile. Black not being able to deal with noncreature permanents is a big issue. It also has slower natural ramp, as it doesn't get access to mana dorks like green and doesn't interact positively with artifacts like blue. Black is probably the best support color because of the tutors and spot removal but by itself it is not that overwhelming.

@trobaldo Karador is the best abzan general because it supports creature-based combo so well by giving resiliency to the combos. That also explains Teneb's tier two placement, as he helms the same kind of deck.

And yet meren is teir 2? Doesn't meren do the same thing faster

NarejED Using your argument for why yisan should be tier one I could say the same is true for any commander. Lets start with mono green Omnath. Omnath runs the same cards as Yisan in most cases yet it is in tier 3. It runs the same enchantment and artifact removals with a variety of big creatures thrown in. "Omnath actually hurts less from being denied its commander than almost any other deck in the format. The deck is highly synergistic and can combo out fairly easily without its commander, or simply win the long game through value and having the biggest creatures. Compare to Arcum or Azami, who are also mono-colored, but are dead in the water without their commander, yet are currently in Tier 1."-Your argument with the word omnath replacing yisan

Also basically your argument is that the deck can be constructed in a way in which the commander is not needed. This can be done with ANY deck period. I can take any green decks in the game and end up with the same deck as yisan if i wanted to.To add to it someone could also take one of your tier 5 decks in say blue Higure, the Still Wind. Create a voltron deck with the sub theme of unblockable (there are plenty of blue unblockables). And it would work the same whether or not higure comes out.

you know......the more I look at Yisan all I see is a crappy Easily destroyed birthing pod. I would personally prefer to use Doran the seige tower.... Its atleast a creature not a crappy birthing pod.

Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero is tier 4 and has a slightly better ability than yisan. I can search for any of my creatures (some are unblockable, some indestructible, there is a creature to get all life I lost that turn back, and some give the entire field huge bumps), I don't have to worry about creatures dying, and I don't have to worry about how many stupid verse counters are on her. Also the commander doesn't have to come out there are other rebels that do the same ability throughout all of her deck builds.

Ok, so as I can see,the opinion on Yisan is divided... I will not move it from tier two for now, because I want this list to reflect what the community thinks.

I would still like to playtest him more. His deck is soooooo consistent and versatile (you can switch creatures easily to adapt to your meta), and having a tutor in the command zone is insanely good.

I think having a real test session, IRL, on MTGO or Cockatrice or whatever would be good, and it shall be tested against the tier one decks, to see id he can beat them, or a couple of them at least.

Then I think it woild be possible to properly place him.

tkdman: Based on your comments, I get the impression you hace never played against a decent Yisan deck. I will admit my first impression of the card was very similar to yours. When someone sat at a table next to me with Yisan I immediately dismissed and ignored him. After a few turns though he had advanced his board to a point where he was literally unstoppable. Green has so much ramp and so many untap affects that he can activate his ability multiple times a turn. Your comparison to him being an easily killed crappy birthing pod is not fair or accurate. Yisan can make himself immune to spot removal after the first verse counter with Sylvan Safekeeper. In many ways he is better than Birthing Pod because he can activate his ability at instant speed and you dont have to sac a creature to get one into play.

trobaldo: Look up Boonweaver Giant combo on google. That card is why Karador is tier 1. It can win before anyone else has even played a land.

Lilbrudder: That's not why Karador is so powerful. Any Abzan commander (or even any Selesnya technically) can run the Boonweaver Giant / Pattern of Rebirth combo. It has nothing to do with the commander.

The reason Karador is so powerful is because he brings a level of resilience to the deck that most other commanders can't. He opens up your graveyard for use every turn while reducing his casting cost just because you're playing on theme. And in the best reanimator colours, with the ability to run heavy ramp. He makes the deck very hard to stop short of running very heavy graveyard hate.

All of what you say about Karador is true. However, boonweaver is significantly less effective in green/white builds due to the lack of comparable tutors and sac outlets. That combo is what sets him apart from generals like Meren. Moreover, tier placements are heavily dependent on color scheme and without that combo Teneb wouldn't sniff tier 2, because he is otherwise a slow clunky general dependent on combat damage to do anything worthwhile. I am curious what the rest of you think. If Boonweaver Giant was banned would Karador still be tier 1?

OK I just looked up that combo. It's the same as a combo in meren using sidisi and yours cost more Mana.

You do it once a turn to get a creature of your choice. I can do it once a turn to get anything I want

@ trobaldo

When the Boonweaver Giant combo is done right, it can put every creature in your library into play in one turn. The combo can potentially be pulled off as early as turn 2 or 3. Normally you reanimate boonweaver from the graveyard to get it out early.

Competitive Karador decks also utilize white for its stax cards to disrupt opponents and keep them from stopping the combo, which Meren doesn't have access to.

@tkdman: You're right, but you're forgetting one thing: Yisan is an immensely powerful commander that wins every game by turn 5 at the latest if left unchecked and offers unparalleled toolboxing ability. Omnath is a medriocre commander. Of course their decks are equally powerful without their commanders; they run extremely similar shells. That's like saying Dakkon Blackblade and Zur the Enchanter should be in the same tier because their decks are similar in power without their commanders.

@trobaldo: You must have looked up the wrong combo. True Boonweaver goes off in a single turn and puts every creature in your library into play, then allows for infinite graveyard recursion loops. It's essentially Guide+Lark combo with Pattern of Rebirth stapled on once it gets going. All the combo requires is Boonweaver / Pattern / Rector in play with a sac outlet to win on the spot.

Anyway, it looks like the people have spoken. Looking at Leinahtan's Poll, it was voted that Yisan be moved up to Tier 1 by an overwhelming 14 votes to 5.

No literally turn 1 or "0" if you play first. Obviously turn 2 or 3 is more common, but still...Just play a swamp and play Dark Ritual to cast Viscera Seer + Entomb + Reanimate to put boonweaver into play. The next step is long and complicated but it involves Karmic Guide and friends to put every creature in your library into play. From there you can sac and reanimate creatures endlessly to kill the board with something like Blood Artist