Bear umbra+hellkite charger=game over.
Basically a deck to try and rush a combo, it's pretty much an elf deck that mills through my deck to get the only red card, the hellkite charger. If you have some suggestions for red cards that might help me mill through my deck faster, this deck is completely open to feedback :). Thanks for the comments ahead of time.
Hey now this sounds fun!! thats a cool combo for sure! Thoughts on wildspeaker? You have some cool ramp going on, but sometimes you need good blockers or even attackers, and wilspeaker even gets you some ramp in addition to that awesome package =3
December 24, 2010 1:05 p.m.
Thats a good point, I might toss wildspeaker in purely for the protection he'll offer me. Add two wildspeakers, keep all 4 nissa's (purely because they help mill the deck down faster so that I'm more likely to draw cards I need, and having 4 makes it more than likely that I'll get her) I think I'll take out 1 frontier guide and 1 fauna shaman to do it. Thanks for the advice, any more is always welcome :).
December 24, 2010 1:07 p.m.
December 24, 2010 1:15 p.m.
I would also add in Elvish Piper as it would help get Hellkite Charger out quicker. But you're still going to need the 7 mana for the effect, but it allows you to drop it at the End Step of your opponent limiting their ability to Doom Blade it.
Then again most of those would require that you break out of standard. But there are a Ton of white cards that can ruin the day without Leyline of Punishment .
December 24, 2010 1:18 p.m.
Yeah, I'd like to stay standard but thanks for the tip with leyline, I'm definitely going to add that, I never even thought of that. I'm also taking out 1 nissa since I seem to consistently get 2 as apposed to 1. I'll add 2 or 3 leylines to try and make sure I get it, thanks again for the advice tim :).
December 24, 2010 1:43 p.m.
World at War would be an excellent card to toss in here. It'll provide you with even more combat phases, as well as give a 'plan B' for when you're not pulling the Charger.
A couple fetch lands wouldn't hurt either; especially since you're only running 20 basic lands. It'd help thin the deck plus still get you the land you need.
December 24, 2010 7:31 p.m.
As much as you need to have the least amount of lands you can possibly have, One og the biggest mistakes that I have seen from most ramp decks is simply that they usually try to play less than 21 or 22. Im not saying that you need the 22 lands to be able to play the deck...Im saying that you HAVE to have the initial landsin your opening hands or you have to mulligan down to absurd numbers, and running so little lands makes each mulligan an impossibly dangerous task.I play ramp decks as well, but I think the most important thing in a ramp deck is the lands. You have to have enough to minimize the number of mulligans you are taking...
December 24, 2010 9:41 p.m.
I used to have a GW ramp deck that played 4 birds of paradise,4 Noble hierarchs,4 llanowar elves, and even 3 steward of valerons.It was incredibly fast and could run those 1 land hands easily. It was a super fast overrun deck and made use of garruks and everything i only ran 19 lands initially which does sound low, but the highest costing card in there was like 4 which was wildspeaker I think. Anyways, point is that when it played it played hot every time. But if I didnt see that one land in the opening hand...mull down to 6 and then 5 and then 4 and then I find a 1 land hand...and two birds of paradise and a llanowar elf, or something equally trashy with nowhere to go.You arent running any 1 drop mana acceleration or anything andf the first source of ramp you have is at the 2 drop slot in the form of explore, which is no good if you cant get to two mana, and then it hurts to use an explore and not have an extra land to drop with it.Then you have 7 cards to help you ramp at T3. You should be good at that point, but...you have to be able to consistently see those initial 3 lands before you can really start to get going. Also, if someone ratchet bombs or day of judgements, then you lose all of your mana accelerants and you end up with not enough lands to do what you need to do, and thats a DANGEROUS place to be. Matter of fact, last week, I played against a mono green elf ramp eldrazi deck. It was terrifying to watch the guy ramp...he had waaaaaay too much mana early on...he managed to T5(or T6 I cant remember which exactly I just know it was hella fast) to drop an eldrazi of some sort. Wrecked my life. Game 2 tho I managed to day on turn 4 and he was stuck on 2 lands, and had 2 eldrazi in his hand. I managed to get my tempo back up and took G2. I literallyu did the same thing G3- I used a day of judgemenet and he didnt have enough lands to recover =C I asked him afterwards and he told me he was using 21 lands. I understand where he was coming from because you NEVER want to see more than 4 lands because at that point you can play effectively with all your ramp on the field. Buuuuuut....he couldnt draw into those other lands that he needed to see. Does that make sense? I hope that helps. My other point I wanted to mention or ask about it the leyline of punishment.....-why? If anything it could be a sideboard card, but it doesnt seem like it wil help much main deck. So what if somone fogs or gains a little bit of life? Your whole point behind the deck is to be able to set up the infinite attack phases. They can only fog so many times, and they can only gain so much kife when you start smashing their face 5 or 6 times in a row without them even being able to untap. hat I will say is you might think about something liek vines of the vastwood to keep people from condemning or journey to nowhere, or any other specific types of spot removal for your charger, because if they can answer it, you lose everything you worked to set up. I hope that helps!
December 24, 2010 9:42 p.m.
Thanks for the advice, I had some birds but they are useless with the hellkite/bear combo since they arn't lands. They were just awkward in this deck. I took out the 3 leylines and added 2 land a fourth lightning bolt. Any other tips are always welcome :).
December 25, 2010 12:03 a.m.
I cant think of a thing...else to add.... if you could find the dual lands, raging ravine, copperline gorge and rootbound crag. Those will ensure that you always have the right colors that you need every time you need them.
December 25, 2010 1 a.m.
Yeah, I was thinking about those, but this deck is rather pricy already. My frame of thought was, well, I never actually have issues with what colors I have, but I was considering raging ravine just to have another creature as well if I need it. I think I might toss in raging ravine and see what happens.
December 25, 2010 11:52 a.m.
Sideboard Asceticism for sure, any other suggestions for a sideboard?
December 25, 2010 12:04 p.m.
naturalize and summoning trap and obstinate baloth. All great cards for sideboard. Besides those you could try ratchet bombs...that card is soo good. Also, dont use 4 asceticism in the side. Its a cool card, and it might prove useful, but it comes down a bit later than you really want. Possibly try vines of teh vastwood instead. It helps against spot removal and against cards like condemn or journey to nowhere, which asceticism wont do. If you still really want to use the enchantment, try 3 instead that way it doesnt clog your hand in the early game.
December 25, 2010 12:10 p.m.
Well I planned on lowering the asceticisms down to 2 or 3 anyway, and the late drop wasn't an issue cuz they were there to protect hellkite more than anything, but since I was only protecting one thing with them I decided to follow your advice. I added...
3x Naturalize Just in case artifacts or enchantments are giving me a hard time.
3x Summoning Trap Obviously meant to be used against blue decks.
3x Obstinate Baloth 4/4, gain 4 life, 4 mana...good deal, plus it'll help against black decks where I get to choose what I discard.
3x Vines of Vastwood Shroud = good
3x card:Nature's Spiral Can return both bear umbra AND hellkite, so it's useful in this situation if they make me discard one or kill one.
Thats my spin on all the advice you gave me and why I consider them to be good cards, thanks again.
December 25, 2010 12:28 p.m.
Thanks again for all the tips Lilwolf, I added you :).
December 26, 2010 12:36 a.m.
add purefax to maindeck or sideboard for alt win combo
December 27, 2010 5:18 p.m.
Well I appreciate the add good sir Alotho...to be honest...I have no clue what all that entails XD Is there a way I can see people who have added me?
December 27, 2010 7:01 p.m.
No, but if you add people as friends you can always have a link to them from your profile so you can check em out and such. And really, putrefax? That just doesn't seem plausible...maybe a different alt win combo but that one doesn't seem too usable, any other suggestions for an alt win? :).
December 27, 2010 7:23 p.m.
well yeah, if he's involved in multiple attack phases he'd be nasty as anything surely?
December 28, 2010 7:42 a.m.
Ahh, I see what you are getting at now. I thought you were saying just pop him in there, ok, well I see what you're getting at but if they have something that can stop my 7/7 hellkite (cuz of bear umbra) they can more than likely stop putrefax as well. Hmm I do like the idea though, I'm tossing it into the maybe board so that I can think about it and maybe playtest a little too. Thanks for the tip.
December 28, 2010 6:12 p.m.
i dont know withou a combo its nota infnite combo but breath of fury will get you extra attack steps.
December 29, 2010 7:11 p.m.
Ahh, thats alright, I've seen better though, plus I'm only looking for standard legal cards, thanks anyway :).
December 29, 2010 7:22 p.m.
Haha thanks man :), the +1 and the compliment always makes me feel better :D.
December 29, 2010 10:20 p.m.
I know you want to stay away form creature mana because they don't untap with the bear umbra but have you thought about doing the Myr Galvanizer infinite mana combo?
December 31, 2010 8:51 a.m.
Yeah, I thought about it, not a horrendous idea to use the bear and the myr too, double the chance of getting some infinite loop. But the important part here is every card in this deck is meant to kind of mill through it faster to get the hellkite out.
December 31, 2010 10:03 a.m.
Nice deck +1! This combo must be great to get off in a game =D. How does it stand up to aggro?
If you run into a lot of aggro in your meta I might suggest trying sideboard Cerebral Eruption ? You can easily get it off turn 3 or 4, and against Kuldotha red, R/B Vamps, or other Elf decks there is a good chance it will act as a board wipe for the opponent only. Maybe not as effective post board against the R/B Vamps if they bring in the card:Demon of Death's Gate, but you get the point. Always a chance that's the card they flip for it and take 9 damage =D.
January 1, 2011 3:29 p.m.
Wow...THANK YOU SO MUCH. I was able to "handle" agro before, but it was definitely hurting my deck a bit since you can see I have a sort of slow deck here. I love pulling this combo in game but cerebral eruption will help SOOOO much :). I owe you one. I was thinking maybe Pyroclasm but that just didn't seem to do enough damage, cerebral is a bit random but I think it's more worth it.
January 1, 2011 3:36 p.m.
I'm not super excited about Frontier Guide in here as the land fetch seems pretty expensive. However I'm having a hard time thinking of a replacement.
I want to suggest Genesis Wave . It would definitely let your fly through your deck; providing ramp and finding Hellkite Charger for you. Although with Fauna Shaman it's not necessarily necessary. Plus it could cause trouble with the Bear Umbra . You would probably need to switch card:Nature's Spiral and Explore to get the best out of it.
The only other suggestion I have is maybe Expedition Map in place of the Frontier Guide as it would let you get a Raging Ravine or a basic. It can't be re-used though. Nor can it be pulled with Nissa's ultimate and it can only be used once. So, I suppose it really depends on what you need more.
January 1, 2011 4:19 p.m.
Hmm I actually agree about Frontier Guide, not nearly as useful as I want it to be. I think tossing in genesis wave instead is a good idea, only thing is if I hit bear, I can't sue nature's spiral to grab it, bear umbra is a permanent, so I would HAVE to put it down, so basically I shouldn't really use genensis until I have a hellkite down already. I think I'll switch the frontier guides for genesis and the explores for nature's spiral in case I hit hellkite.
January 1, 2011 6:35 p.m.
I'm glad you like the idea of Cerebral Eruption =D. I was about to suggest Pyroclasm as I know a lot of Valakut players have moved that to mainboard to help against aggro, but I figured with you running important elves that you don't want to die its sort of a double-edged sword. Cerebral Eruption is definitely a bit random, but its nice that you can't have it fail on you completely as you get it back if its a land (although that slows you down a bit), but against the aggro decks its intended for they are usually running low land counts anyway.
A comment on the Frontier Guide , I can definitely imagine his ability would be tough to use just based on its high mana cost. Have you considered ramping with Overgrown Battlement ? I know you were running Birds before, and just like them the walls don't untap from the Hellkite Charger , but at least they provide the extra utility of a reasonably solid blocker. Still not a great fit to the deck though, just a thought.
If you do decide to try out Genesis Wave I would definitely think about putting in Elvish Archdruid . He will give you really strong ramp with your deck full of elves and makes an attractive target for removal (just like the Fauna Shaman ) before you drop your Hellkite Charger so you may even end up keeping the Charger on board a little better against control.
January 1, 2011 7:47 p.m.
I tried genesis, it's useful but a little awkward so I'm still playtesting with it, I might toss elvish archdruid in too, got any ideas for an alternate win condition while you're commenting? I feel like I need some other way to win..
January 1, 2011 8:19 p.m.
This is just an idea. Since your main win condition is essentially an infinite damage combo, have you considered swapping Naturalize for card:Nature's Claim? My expertise is more in Legacy over Standard and this Nature's Claim is very popular in that scene. Despite the drawback of your opponent gaining life, you benefit from having a less expensive removal card.
January 1, 2011 9:19 p.m.
True, plus I shouldn't care about them gaining life too much, I'll make that change tomorrow ("Later today")
January 2, 2011 4:54 a.m.
Actually, Genesis Wave reads "...may put..." so you can choose to put it in the graveyard even if you could have put it into play. I've actually been playing around with a Green/Black re-animator deck that uses that very realization to have some fun.
The real danger with Genesis Wave at least in my limited experience is that it kills Instants and Sorceries, you only have 16 total though so that is less than 1/3 of the deck. Plus three of those are Genesis Wave it's self.
January 2, 2011 8:26 a.m.
Something else that might be worth consideration in your sideboard is Reverberate . You have some spells in here that would be great doubled for just two red. Plus, it provides a little defense against counter magic.
January 2, 2011 8:29 a.m.
Any suggestions on what to take out for Reverberate? I do like the idea of it, whether its paying 5 mana for 4 land, 3 mana for 6 damage, or any other awesome double cast. :P
January 2, 2011 1:50 p.m.
I would maybe move Lightning Bolt or Cerebral Eruption to the sideboard and put Reverberate in that slot. Then if you find you are having trouble damaging the opponent or they have really fast aggro you could side it out for Lightning Bolt or Cerebral Eruption .
January 2, 2011 6:14 p.m.
for the remaining 3 in the sideboard i agree 100% that it should be Leyline of Punishment if you have putrafex in your deck all it would be used for is the infinate combat phase combo to much wasted mana and also if it gets that late game your opponent will just chump block take a few and putrafex is gone hes one of the Mimic Vat combo cards not for this deck though.
January 10, 2011 11:36 a.m.
Burning Inquiry is a card that might be used just to burn through your deck quickly if you have a shit hand, idk just a cool card
June 26, 2011 7:28 p.m.
Thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately I do not want to discard three cards at random lest I discard that bear umbra or hellkite charger I need, plus I don't know what I would switch out for it, thanks for trying though :) I'm just really nitpicky :P
June 26, 2011 7:41 p.m.
Too lazy to read all of the comments, but I like Noxious Revival more than card:Nature's Spiral. It may not put that card I need into my hand, but (at Instant-speed) I can cast this at the end of my opponent's turn (even without mana to spend) and draw it at my next Draw Step. That way, my opponent doesn't have time to prepare for whatever it is I'm getting back.
June 26, 2011 7:55 p.m.
I usually have enough mana that saving mana or even doing things at the end of my opponents turn doesn't really matter too much. But hey, I kind of like it, I'll have to think about which I'd prefer. I guess I can't really see any harm in using noxious revival. Thanks :)
June 26, 2011 8:18 p.m.
Another thing I forgot to mention: Noxious Revival allows you to put a card on top of your opponent's library, too. If they have a land, or something they wouldn't want to draw, you can target a card your opponent has in his/her graveyard and put it on top and slow them down for at least 1 turn.
June 26, 2011 8:27 p.m.
Oh wow yeah I didn't even think of that, good call. That's a useful little trick to mess someone up, I like it. Yeah I definitely think I'm going to be going with noxious revival, overall it feels like it has more use :) Any other suggestions are always welcome, I've been thinking maybe replace garuk with koth? Yes? No?
June 26, 2011 8:30 p.m.
I decided against koth since I can't use his land=creature thing defensively, thus garuk will give me more creatures to hold out with :)
June 27, 2011 5:48 p.m.
July 1, 2011 7:15 p.m.
??? I'd think not, albeit the hellkite is important to get, if I drop 2xBear Umbra's I'll never get the combo off, and asceticism is important to keep hellkite alive in certain situations, thanks for the suggestion, but if you look at the combo that just can't be done. Thanks though :)
July 1, 2011 7:40 p.m.
I still think 4x card:Green Sun's Zenith would prove worth it. What you can do is go to 1-2 of some things you currently have at 3-4, like Oracle of Mul Daya for example. You could maybe even drop the card:Nissa's Chosen / Nissa Revane package since green sun + fauna shaman allows you to solid way to find your hellkite by mid-game. If you did this, you could put a couple of Sylvan Ranger so you can ramp into your many 4-drops more reliably while still having a synergy with the umbra and also thinning the deck.
Also, if you go this route I would add 1x Omnath, Locus of Mana (plus another in your sideboard) since this gives you an alternate way of storing mana if you don't have the umbra going yet.
I also recommend moving the Vines of Vastwood to the main over Asceticism though (and keeping the latter in the sideboard if you're really still in love with them). Vines are less expensive and more versatile.
July 1, 2011 8:58 p.m.
Hmm good suggestions overall, sword of feast and famine is an AMAZING suggestion, I simply wasn't aware of the creation of this card. I do see what you're saying with green sun's zenith, and it makes perfect sense, I'll take some time to find the right places for both of those cards in my deck, although if I ever do end up buying this deck, the sword probably won't be purchased simply due to the price, I'll have to find it elsewhere if it gets in. Thanks against for the suggestions, I'll make those changes tomorrow probably :)
July 1, 2011 9:25 p.m.
You might also try to find room for a Whispersilk Cloak or two because even if you get the combo going, if your opponent has a 6/6 flier you're in trouble but if the cloak is around (after putting on the umbra) you have an instant infinite combo. A little more complicated this way and only necessary when then opponent has big fliers so I think you probably only need 1 and maybe another in the SB.
July 1, 2011 10:08 p.m.
Sounds good, yeah I figure put those in the SB, that's a great suggestion, thanks :)