"Tribal" is being replaced by "Typal", because reasons
General forum
Posted on June 24, 2023, 2:55 p.m. by TypicalTimmy
Oh give me a break. Really?
There's an ongoing social theory that if something innocuous with no negativity behind it at all causes YOU to become upset and vocal about it's so-called "wrong-doings", it says more about you then you'd think.
If a word that has been used for over 30 years to describe tribes (Creatures who share a subtype in the game) suddenly makes you feel racist, it's because you have racist thoughts and immediately associate the word "tribe" with indigenous and underdeveloped nations. And I'm willing to bet NOBODY took it racially until someone in corporate spoke up. And now suddenly half the blazen community will be up in arms about how they've "always" thought that way but didn't want to speak up. No you didn't, you're just jumping on the next trendy social bandwagon.
Grubbernaut says... #3
And even so, "typal" is just more confusing, because... well, there's plenty of noncreature card types.
June 24, 2023 3:56 p.m.
It's a company providing a luxury product. If WotC's PR people are told that there's a perceived problem with the product, they're going to work to change it. While I personally didn't see any problem with the word, after doing some quick research, it does seem to have loaded connotations for certain ethnicities. If WotC believes that changing their internal word usage (and they have long ago stated they don't intend to bring back the retired Tribal supertype) will help improve their attractiveness to customers, they will change.
If multiple disparate ethnic groups claim that it's demeaning, WotC should at least review their usage. If they're inadvertently being disrespectful to multiple cultures, it makes sense to adjust, especially when the change doesn't directly affect anyone outside of the production offices, and shouldn't hurt anyone.
So while I might not have realized the change was necessary, if changing internal word use would help attract new customers, go ahead and change. Who would have even known about this if Mark Rosewater didn't mention it in passing? Why is this an issue?
June 24, 2023 4:14 p.m.
Slight correction: it wasn't mentioned in passing, it wasn't mentioned at all until MaRo was specifically asked about it.
Slight addition: MaRo has said that people are free to use "tribal" if they want to. This literally only affects the WotC internal vocabulary.
June 24, 2023 4:21 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #6
It was demons and pentagrams before, it’ll be something else again in the future; there is no stopping the pendulum. As long as we have Eviscerate, Piracy, Hurricane, Extinction, Torture, Blatant Thievery, and Murder everything will be fine ;p
June 24, 2023 4:46 p.m.
wallisface says... #7
I agree with everything legendofa said above.
Society and culture change over time - Its not something to fret over. I personally think you’re making a big-deal over something that doesn’t affect you at-all. The company is changing their wording to make sure they’re not segregating communities. That is all. You’re not being held at- gunpoint to do the same.
June 24, 2023 5:08 p.m.
Context is important.
Last year, Wizards made a really, really bad mistake in D&D - they released a monkey playable species whose backstory borrowed almost word-for-word from 18th and 19th slaver justifications for why slavery is a good thing. It was a PR disaster, and, though it may have been a complete accident, it did reveal cracks in Wizards’ systems.
Specifically, it showed that Wizards’ staff was not taking into account the possible connotations of their language and how they might, through their lack of cognisance, accidentally make something that looks incredibly racist.
To fix this, they have done a couple things to change internal policy to make sure employees are mindful that their words matter. This includes hiring the consultants MaRo mentioned in his post.
What they are doing makes sense - the consultants likely told Wizards “Hey, so, your usage of Tribal is fine right now. But historically that word has been used in a problematic way - continued use of it might lead to the exact kind of inadvertent mistake that made Spelljammer pretty darn racist. Rather than take that risk, you might want to change to something different before coincidence of carelessness makes it a problem.”
That isn’t all that bad, in the grand scheme of things. It is a preemptive measure to avoid a mistake Wizards knows all too well can and might happen. After all, it is generally better to avoid putting yourself in a situation where mistakes or unfortunate coincidences could be easy, instead fixing any potential problems before it offends your customers.
June 24, 2023 5:34 p.m.
I mean, we have to learn so many random words to play magic anyways, what's one more : ) It's the kind of thing that probably wasn't a big deal, but at the same time, changing a word isn't really a big deal either.
June 24, 2023 10:18 p.m.
I have to say that there is a not insignificant 'ick' factor in using the a term to define racial groups (as in actual races of creatures that aren't the same species) when the same term has traditionally been used to refer to social groups (made up of the same species as those bestowing the term) that are generally non-European, and generally in a derogatory way. European natives are almost never referred to as being part of a 'tribe', that's something for the 'primitives' to be part of, even if you read history we bend over backwards to avoid using it to characterize white people in the real world. The term is used in sociology IIRC to refer to groups of people that share some facet of identity that they like to emphasize, so there is complexity to the term, but it has enough baggage that I'm not shocked WotC'd ditch the term.
I think there are more questionable things than this kicking around in Magic so this is a weird choice, but it doesn't seem like a problem. I think it'll take me awhile to change how I think, but again, this is a very small annoyance that might make some people feel included.
June 25, 2023 10:17 a.m.
DreadKhan As a minor nitpick, I don't think it's too unusual to refer to Gaulish or Germanic tribes, among others. The reference point for "primitive" vs. "civilized" is even more specific: the Roman Empire. Sure, the word "tribe" comes from a Latin word referring to Romans, but that usage went its own way pretty quickly.
And, of course, people don't usually refer to Danish or French or Bulgarian people as "tribal" today.
June 25, 2023 12:27 p.m.
The word tribe has been used at one point and time to refer to brittons, Germans, literally every ethnic group you can think of. Just because YOU tie it to "primitive" means you have a problem, not the word.
June 25, 2023 1:05 p.m.
Yisan - Please refrain from accusatory (particularly when emphasised with all caps) language against other users.
June 25, 2023 1:11 p.m.
Yisan Nobody here has used the word "tribal" as a synonym for the word "primitive" or "uncivilized" except to describe how it's been used in the past. I'm not quite sure who your comment is addressed to, if the emphasized "you" is directed at a specific person or not.
Could you please provide an example of the word "tribe" being generally used to describe the Roman Empire, or pretty much any urban European area of the last few centuries?
June 25, 2023 1:22 p.m.
legendofa - Tribe was used to describe various breakdowns of various entities within Roman society, with the original Roman tribes dating back to Romulus himself - at least according to the founding myth.
That said, anyone with a basic understanding of etymology knows words develop over time and can take on new connotations. Etymological origins are important, but they are not the only criteria for evaluating a word, and choosing only to look at history instead of the modern developments does language itself a disservice.
The historical usage of tribe has changed over the past couple thousand years. In today’s word, “tribal” is almost always used in a manner synonymous with “uncivilised” or “primitive”, usually in a context of dismissing other cultures as inferior.
That doesn’t mean the word is bad, per se, nor is Wizards saying the word is bad. What they are acknowledging is “this word, in modern parlance, is often used in a problematic way. The easiest way for us to avoid using the word in a way that might hurt our players is to use a new word without the same potential for inadvertently racist connotations.”
June 25, 2023 1:35 p.m.
Part of what I meant by 'bending over backwards' was stuff like referring to the areas that weren't Roman/Greek/Mediterranean as 'tribal', and even then it definitely wasn't a positive term, the Romans and Greeks had a very low opinion of 'barbarians' (which is what Greeks called most non-Greeks). Those groups didn't think of themselves as 'tribes', that was a label that was foisted upon them, and that's pretty much universal, it's a label you bestow on a group you want to 'other' and belittle. When those tribes bested the Romans, the term stopped being applied because nobody was interested in insulting those groups anymore, but when Europeans traveled elsewhere, people that 'didn't count' were diminutively referred to as 'tribes' rather than nations/states, the pejorative term once again saw use.
If you respect a group of people you probably think of/refer to them as a nation, not a tribe. I think that's explicitly what WotC's point was, 'tribal' has negative connotations due to how it has been used historically.
June 25, 2023 1:36 p.m.
Caerwyn Thanks for laying that out. I did have that in mind, but I guess I didn't make my intention clear. My thought was that the people of urbanized European areas have pretty much never been referred to as a "tribe" in any modern discussion, in response to the claim that "literally every ethnic group you can think of" has been called a tribe.
June 25, 2023 2:09 p.m.
Yea I saw an article talking about this. Thought about posting it myself
What else can we expect after the removal of old cards simply because some people got offended over them? Things like this will likely keep happening
I'm waiting for them to rework all cards that say "his or her" to "they" to be more inclusive for people that identify as nonbinary
June 26, 2023 1:14 p.m.
Moonie - They changed all the “his or her” language over to “their” five years ago with Dominaria. Clearly it was not a big deal - you did not even notice the change for half a decade.
June 26, 2023 1:32 p.m.
Yes truthfully I don't buy any recent sets so I wouldn't notice but I meant more along the lines of banning any cards that give any gendered language
And if it's not a big deal, why change it at all? Instead of affirming everybody's fragile egos and hurt feelings maybe people can just learn to not be so narcissistic and easily offended
I get that some people won't agree with me on that (and probably think I sound like an a-hole) and that's fine but some of us are tired of walking on eggshells to prevent offending someone who goes out of their way looking for something to be offended by. I don't see the point in memory holing things that do exist or have happened to appease others
I think the context of intent needs to be considered to find something offensive, otherwise you're just complaining to hear yourself talk
June 26, 2023 2:27 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #22
Generally speaking, internal design for MtG is trending in the direction of shortening language wherever possible to allow for more space for complex design. In addition to changing the "his or her" to "their" which is shorter and still grammatically correct, this is also why "Converted Mana Cost" got changed to "Mana Value", and why "Mill" is now accepted as the keyword for decking cards straight to the graveyard.
I'm glad that MtG is trending towards inclusivity and updating their own internal language for how they write & template cards for complexity.
Also lmao they would never ban cards with "his or her". Those cards are still used and in circulation. They will likely get updated with future reprints as they tend to update older cards with newer language templating over time. People still play older printings of cards that say "bury target creature" as opposed to destroy. Nothing is being memory-holed, all of these printings still exist and are played.
June 26, 2023 2:41 p.m.
_Moonie_ It's not like gendered language has been completely removed from the game. Planeswalkers still use him/her/etc. Dakkon, Shadow Slayer, pretty much every Gideon, The Wandering Emperor, Rowan, Scholar of Sparks Flip, and more all refer to the character in the rules text.
For referring to players, again, there's no harm in the "his or her" -> "their" switch. Aside from the benefits of inclusion, it saves space on the card and is quicker to parse. No cards have ever been banned because of gendered language, and I don't think that was ever a suggestion. They've had their official rules text updated from using three short words to one short word.
June 26, 2023 2:42 p.m.
Moonie - To be very clear, TappedOut is not a place for victim blaming.
The reality is that certain words have been used in exclusionary ways and in furtherance of hate. Recognising that reality is not being “narcissistic” or having a “fragile ego”. Posts like your are trying to blame the marginalised populations for being offended at connotations created by those who would repress them.
Victim blaming of that sort is never acceptable - and it is not permitted on this site. I suggest you refrain from making such comments moving forward, as doing so very well might result in your posting privileges being revoked.
June 26, 2023 3:24 p.m.
Caerwyn I'm not victim blaming anyone, I'm taking part in the conversation by giving my opinion. Maybe this is a conversation you should have refrained from taking part in if the subject matter triggers you and you're going to start accusing people of things
Chill out with the assumptions and the condescending attitude because I said something you didn't agree with. As I said it's fine if you don't agree. Billions of people in the world, we're not all going to agree on the same things.
Offense, much like humor is subjective. I could be offended by something you find to be innocuous or vice versa.
And with that I'm done here...
June 26, 2023 5:14 p.m.
_Moonie_ I don't really mean to start a larger argument here, but when you say intent, I don't see how that doesn't apply to the other side too. People were probably sitting around at Wizards like, hey we should change this 30 year old word in our game, and everyone said, yep let's do that. They're not trying to make you walk on eggshells, they're revising what is at this point, an old game.
Just saying, intent can mean a lot of things : ) If someone called you the wrong name, you'd correct them rather than letting them call you the wrong name forever. In my eyes, that's all this is. It's a simple correction just for the sake of fixing a small flub.
June 26, 2023 5:20 p.m.
nah this is good cuz white ppl love to see their wrong doing and squabbling and call it tribalism anyways and its so exhausting seeing ppl use language to say "you're being like indigenous people"
June 27, 2023 6:35 p.m.
I always thought it was kindof goofy when I got back into the game, that people called them "tribal" at all, but I've always just been kindof out-of-date & gone with the flow of the community at-large. I always called them "races" about 25 years ago... which could be hilariously problematic, especially if people called it a race-card :)
No matter how much I like to poke fun at WoTC, they do attempt to be a progressive company. So anyway, I think if you are not an already enfranchised player (from a newB) perspective "Tribal" is a kindof a confusing term to describe races/lords, for me it did always carry the primitive/cultural weight that made me not really understand what it actually had to do with the strategy itself.
June 27, 2023 7:02 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #29
I mean, other than on the mostly Lorwyn 'tribal X' cards, was 'tribal' a thing? Do they mean just in marketing materials or something (didn't disable my adblock to read the article, so sorry if it was explained in there)? References to creature types on cards are just that, creature type. Other than the public relating to creature type-focused decks as 'tribal', I don't see where this is really that relevant.
That said, maybe this is a hint we're going back to Lorwyn? Or just them hinting that they don't want the Eldrazi and Sliver-tribal decks to be referred to as such in media releases/ reviews/ etc.
June 27, 2023 10:23 p.m.
golgarigirl The three sentence summary is, WotC had been using the word "tribal" to refer to effects that care about creature type in their articles, discussions, etc. (e.g. Stromkirk Captain is a Vampire tribal card; it supports Vampire creatures). On the advice of multiple consultants, they have replaced that usage with the words "typal." This will only officially affect in-house material, but I suspect that most third-party reviewers, journalists, and other writers will start using "typal," for consistency if nothing else.
June 27, 2023 11:08 p.m.
griseldrazi says... #31
The change from tribal to typal is only on R&D internal design lingo and does not affect you.
It's just good to clarify so that followers understand Maro's terms on his platforms. As a card type WotC abandoned it years ago anyway. This is prob more about creature types, so kiiinda perhaps comparable to distinguishing generic and colorless, except for the use of Wizards' employees. Internal lingo does not exlude the chance of reprints either.
Though can't much hurt either if someone sees WotC as a more welcoming and considerate employee because of this, who notices minorities and the baggage words carry. After the last few years I seriously doubt that, but image is obviously important to companies, so wouldn't be surprised either.
So all in all or tldr, feel free to still call it as tribal.
August 31, 2023 4:21 a.m.
This is why I use and love tappedout! Because of people like Caerwyn, legendofa and most of the people who responded to this thread. Making even small, internal attempts to be inclusive or considerate is a good thing. Often these changes are solely for gameplay, like the switch from his or her to using their - WOTC (as others have said already) literally did it to make cards easier to read and to leave more room for other card text. Was it also inclusive and made your local non binary magic event organizer feel very happy and seen? Yes! And no matter how much I deal with this it still always surprises me that my inclusion in this game, accidental or not, my JOY makes them angry- or worse feel like something was TAKEN from them because I am now included.
The meaning of words change over time, and I didn't even realize until the switch that honestly, yea tribal sounds pretty uncomfortable. I am happy to have another word to use that doesn't have such a weighted and (implied primitive/uncivilized) narrative attached to it. I am happy to have a new term to use. But if you don't like it... Just keep saying tribal? I don't understand why this makes people mad, say what you want in the context of your own kitchen table games, but don't be upset that WOTC is trying to move away from potentially insensitive or demeaning language.
And thank you to the people who said something- there are not a lot of MTG spaces where I feel welcome as a trans person but this is absolutely one of them <3
August 31, 2023 9:02 a.m.
I dunno... On one hand, it feels kinda daft to me, in an overly "politically correct" way. I mean, banning Invoke Prejudice was definitely a good thing, everything about that card is super-racist. But this? Maybe it's just that I'm from central Europe but I genuinely associate the word "tribal" with a societal structure that 10,000 years ago was kinda the default for humanity. I've also heard it used (rarely, but still) in relation to urban subcultures. The imperialist/colonialist connotations of the word never occured to me.
But on the other hand, I do understand the need to NOT be gatekeepy about Magic. To be inviting to everyone. That's the important thing. Also, I can imagine it being a lot more contentious word in countries that are the result of colonialism (like USA or Canada), because there are indigenous groups living there.
And it's not like Wizards are policing it or something - everyone can still say tribal if they want to. As has been mentioned in this thread several times.
Oh, and one more thing - just wanted to say thanks to Caerwyn for that D&D context. I think that explains a lot. And ultimately, if this change means no more accidental racism from WotC, then it can't really be a bad thing.
September 7, 2023 1:48 p.m.
Skeptopotamus says... #34
This was a good read with some thought provoking points.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that not all tribes are indigenous. Consider Jews, for instance. They self proclaim as a tribe.
British tribal groups (like the Picts) are what the word tribal evokes for me. I think it's right to consider it as a precursor to nationhood, but wrong to equate it with being indigenous or backward.
I agree with Gleeocm that races and lords make a lot more sense (and gel with D&D better) than tribal though. It's a shame they've chosen typal + kindred as it's more bland. It's also a bit wrong because kin/kinship/kindred implies blood relations.
I tend to think the current rounds of censorship in MtG are a futile attempt at claiming back some mind share. The less "problematic" Magic gets, the less interesting it gets as well. I wonder if it's not death by a thousand cuts.
December 16, 2023 11:26 a.m.
“I tend to think the current rounds of censorship in MtG are a futile attempt at claiming back some mind share.”
There has not been censorship in MTG. There is a company changing its own speech. The only attempts at censorship are the folks saying “Wizards, I don’t like your new speech, I demand you change your speech back to what it was.”
That is the thing folks miss - they love to try and say companies changing their language is censorship… but, in reality, the ones who are crying about censorship are the only ones in these conversations engaging in any attempt at censorship.
December 16, 2023 4:56 p.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #36
"It's also a bit wrong because kin/kinship/kindred implies blood relations."
While that may be true for the noun form of "kindred", the first definition for the adjective form from OED is "Having similar or related qualities, origins, characteristics, etc.; cognate, related, like, similar." Personally I have seen, heard, and used "kindred" as an adjective far more than as a noun.
I think "typal" sounds dumb and wish that they had used "kindred" to describe decks as well. Especially since common usage of "tribal" in Magic parlance has for years been closer to "having similar or related qualities" than to "sharing a type". Actually if they were using specifically those two words to replace the deck descritor and the card type, I feel like they got them reversed.
December 16, 2023 9:41 p.m.
alffourhanded says... #37
Wow, no wonder MtG goes to hell with their customers being a bunch of snowflakes. And now please ban me, I don't want to have anything in common with this "safespace".
January 7, 2024 4:55 p.m.
wallisface says... #38
alffourhanded it’s very curious you’ve chosen this “hill to die on” after using the site for 11 years and having apparently no comments prior to this one.
The definition for ”snowflake” often tars someone as emotional and easily-offended. With that in mind, do you not think your own comment appears to exhibit that aura more than any of the other conversation here? (i personally find it interesting the people bandying that word are often the people closest to matching its definition)
Yisan says... #2
I'm not sure why it would be seen as negative? I'll stick with tribal, ignore anyone saying "that has negative connotations", and try to enjoy a stupid game that year after year makes itself harder to enjoy
June 24, 2023 3:18 p.m.