Screwed by a box mapper
General forum
Posted on Jan. 31, 2014, 7:59 a.m. by x754
Let me tell you the story.
I bought three booster boxes from a guy on eBay. He had good feedback, the boxes had a nice price that matched others like JJ'sFunStuff, and the guy offered me some nice combined shipping because I asked him to ship three boxes. When boxes arrived today, I saw that the plastic seals around each box were gone. This made me slightly suspicious, because it meant that the packs could have been swapped. The packs themselves were sealed, so the only way to know was to actually open the packs.
I proceed to open the packs in box 1: Dragon's Maze.
- zero mythics
- zero AEtherling
- one Advent of the Wurm
- one Skylasher
- one Hallowed Fountain
in a Gate slot
Looks like it's been mapped.
I proceed to open the packs in box 2: Gatecrash.
- one Borborygmos Enraged
- one Lord of the Void
- one foil Hellkite Tyrant
- one Nightveil Specter
- zero shocklands
- zero Boros Reckoner
- zero Assemble the Legion
And that's about it for Gatecrash rares that have seen constructed play. Box looks like it was mapped - but the Specter left behind tells me that the box was mapped and the packs swapped before Theros increased the demand for Nightveil Specter
in both mono-blue and mono-black devotion.
I proceed to open the packs in box 3: Theros. Pretty sure this is mapped too, and I'm correct.
- one Hythonia the Cruel
- one Spear of Heliod
- one Hammer of Purphoros
- two Bident of Thassa
- one Bow of Nylea
- one Whip of Erebos
- one Prophet of Kruphix
- zero scrylands
Nothing else that is currently over $1.00 on TCGplayer. This box is mapped too.
As things currently stand, I've left him some negative feedback on eBay. I have his return address off the package. I'm relatively (read:gloriously, vengefully, sadistically) displeased with his actions. I would like do something to... discourage his future box mapping operations, and actively protect other would-be buyers. Advice?
Rasta_Viking29 says... #3
eBay username please. I'm sorry bud. I love me some eBay but never buy sealed on there.
January 31, 2014 8:09 a.m.
If you receive an item that's not as described you have an ebay case. Unfortunately the item isn't in a returnable state so they may not accept a claim.
January 31, 2014 8:12 a.m.
1 - Never buy online from any place/person you don't have complete trust in.
2 - If purchasing boxes, insist that it be shipped in the original and complete packaging (including the original shrink-wrap, with the Wizards logo) - Keep copies of this request.
3 - If you receive the box, and it does not have the original packaging (or if you believe it has been tampered with), - do not open any - Immediately contact the seller, and any intermediate/overseeing companies (in this case ebay), to notify them they you intend to ship them back for a full refund.
January 31, 2014 8:14 a.m.
Did each box contain at least one foil rare? That's the only way you can prove the difference between "mapped boxes" and "I had crappy luck"
You aren't guaranteed in any way, opening one box of each set, to get any good money cards at all.
January 31, 2014 8:36 a.m.
If it's on your credit card, go to your bank and request a charge back on your card for the purchase and say it's because you were scammed and explain the situation, then ship the opened packs back to him. There will be nothing he can do outside of sue you, and I really doubt he will do that.
January 31, 2014 8:37 a.m.
Oh just uh, say you werent aware of box mappers before opening them. Say you found it very odd you didnt get any mythics and then look into it, and found out about it. There should be at least 4 mythics, 1 foil rare or mythic per box, guarenteed by wizards. You got tampered with product that was suppose to be factory sealed.
January 31, 2014 8:39 a.m.
The seller would (and would probably be correct to do so) argue that by opening the packs, you have essentially destroyed their product, and you shouldn't be entitled to any refund.
If you'd opened the boxes and gotten all kinds of money cards, you wouldn't say anything. If you opened the boxes, got money cards, and at the bottom of the box was a note that said "I totally mapped the packs, but I did it in reverse! You get the best box ever!" you wouldn't be angry about it either.
You even said before you opened a single pack that you were nervous and suspicious because there was no WOTC shrink-wrap on the boxes.
January 31, 2014 8:44 a.m.
You aren't guaranteed 4 mythics in a box. But you are supposed to get a foil rare.
January 31, 2014 8:45 a.m.
...However, there is no statement by Wizards that they guarantee any number of Mythics in a box, nor a foil rare.
Even if they had claimed, at some point, that there should be one, they have also admitted that miss-packaging can occur, and thus there is no guarantee.
I know of people who have opened booster packs with no rates, and others who have opened packs with 3 rates (non-foil and non-transform).
January 31, 2014 8:59 a.m.
If someone said they opened a pack with no rare theyre either lying, or the pack was opened, the rare taken out, and then resealed and sold to them.
And yes, the things I said are true. Ask any box mapper and they will confirm my statements. (but please keep in mind those are minimums, you can get more than that)
January 31, 2014 9:04 a.m.
@wish12oz - What you said is not true. Once you added "...per box, guarenteed by wizards", your statement became false.
As is your statement regarding the packs with no rare. - Miss-packaging can and does occur.
Here is a link to another forum on this site which has already discussed this:
link
You'll notice that I have posted Wizards statement on what happens if this occurs during a draft.
"7.4 Abnormal Product
Neither Wizards of the Coast nor the Tournament Organizer guarantee any specific distribution of card rarities or frequency in a particular booster pack or tournament pack. If a player receives an unconventional distribution of rarities or frequencies in a particular booster pack or tournament pack, he or she must call a judge. The final decision to replace or allow the atypical product is at the discretion of the Head Judge and the Tournament Organizer."
January 31, 2014 9:26 a.m.
I was going to comment and explain how wizards packages the boxes and sorts them and shuffles them... then I thought I could potentially get banned for that, so Im not going to.
To clarify: When I said wizards guarantees that, I didnt mean in writing, I meant in the way they package the packs and boxes and distribute cards inside of the packs and boxes. Feel free to google it if you want specifics about how they package things and why I say this, Im sure you can find out like I did when I found out box mappers exist.
January 31, 2014 9:52 a.m.
I have read all about the way they package the packs and distribute them.
But that does NOT negate my statements. Miss-packaging, though not common, can and does occur.
When it occurs, they take no measures to refund/replace these packs/boxes. This is because there is no guarantee.
Without a guarantee, anyone who opens a box of boosters (sealed or unsealed), will have no recourse to send them back, either to the seller of to Wizards.
January 31, 2014 10 a.m.
When it occurs they do nothing? Really?
Ever see a rainbow Yu Gi Oh card or a white face Magic card? Wizards sends you packs if you send those in. Based on that I find it hard to believe they would not send you new product if you could prove what you bought was defective somehow. Proving it was defective is going to be the difficult part though.
January 31, 2014 10:15 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #18
Yes, sometimes mistakes happen in packaging and you don't get a rare, or you only get crap in a booster box... But to get three crappy boxes, from three different sets, all together? Nah, it's not a fluke. He was ripped off.
If the description doesn't say "with original shrink wrapping" then don't buy it. If you were suspicious, you should have immediately sent them back. If the first box was obviously mapped, you shouldn't have opened the other two.
You should still report it to eBay, but now you have zero proof that the guy ripped you off.
Also, if you're suspicious, you should record yourself opening everything. That's what people do when they buy Beta packs, or anything really expensive. It's good evidence in case something is wrong.
January 31, 2014 10:26 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #19
Contact ebay, if they sent you mapped boxes listed as genuine booster boxes, they are committing fraud, normally if you wanted to return an item you'd have to ensure it wasn't opened / damaged, but in this case you aren't returning it you have been essentially mugged.
The seller should be told to reimburse you.
January 31, 2014 10:39 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #20
Please provide the sellers eBay username. Many of use on here use eBay, I'd assume none of us would buy from him if we know who it was.
January 31, 2014 10:43 a.m.
The buyer destroyed their product even after admitting they found it suspicious. If they didn't state in their item description that the boxes were still factory sealed, this is, unfortunately, your fault for not taking proper care when buying, and then not taking proper care when the product arrived.
It really sucks, and if you actually got mapped boxes, I feel bad for you. But eBay won't do anything about it, nor should they.
January 31, 2014 10:48 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #22
Before you publicly shame the seller - have you tried to contact him? Send him a message through eBay, let him know the boxes were mapped, then see what he says. Maybe he'll offer you an immediate refund (you never know, maybe his supplier sent him crappy boxes and he didn't know).
Since you already left bad feedback he probably won't be as open to resolving the situation now. It's always best to contact the seller before leaving feedback - no matter the situation.
If he doesn't respond to your message, THEN contact eBay. The first thing eBay will ask you is "have you contacted the seller to try and resolve this?"
January 31, 2014 10:51 a.m.
kiranearitachi says... #23
yup i agree with the person above me you allways contact the seller before bad feedback. i just had that experience with my first return i have had to do. the person contacted me and i said i would give them a refund. then neither one of us gets bad feedback on each other
January 31, 2014 10:54 a.m.
If the seller has sold mapped booster boxes, then they NEED bad feedback.
If you allow them to resolve the issue, then there is nothing stoping them from sending mapped boxes to the next customer, who may not be as knowledgable, and may not have any idea that box mappers exist.
This is the purpose of feedback. To let potential customers know of possible issues.
Even if he received bad boxes from his supplier, he should have sent them back, and not attempted to resell them himself.
This is not a situation of 'accidentally' shipping something not quite as described, or that was not quite in the condition it was originally stated. - This is an attempt at fraud. ebay should be notified, and feedback should be left.
January 31, 2014 11:06 a.m.
Yes. They do nothing. Wizards cannot replace product based on packaging issues, as there is no way to verify the issue.
With defective product damaged during production (miss cut, crimped, poor print quality, or otherwise unplayable), they simply need to look at the cards and see the issue.
If they were to replace miss packed items, people found simply take out the value cards, replace them with commons and claim it was a miss package. (Similar to how box mappers take out the value packs and resell the junk).
Question to the OP.
Do you still have the wrappers from the individual boosters?
I believe they may have batch identifiers printed on them. If so, these may be able to be used in order to tell if the individual packs originally came from the same box.
January 31, 2014 11:17 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #26
Yes, the seller needs negative feedback, BUT that doesn't mean he can't talk to the seller first and try and get his money back. You don't just say "guy ripped me off and sold me bad product" without contacting the seller first. That's not how eBay works, and I'm pretty sure eBay's guidelines recommend that you ALWAYS contact the seller to resolve issues before leaving feedback.
If the seller's supplier is sending him bad boxes, he needs to know about it so he can cut-off his supplier. If that's the case, the seller may not have even known about the boxes being bad.
If the buyer is mad at anyone, he should be mad at himself. He opened something that was obviously suspicious, and destroyed all evidence that he was ripped off. If the seller is a con artist, he's going to say "Prove it!" and the buyer won't be able to. EBay isn't going to investigate a claim of fraud with zero evidence.
January 31, 2014 11:33 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
I should point out that you need to make a very strong case in your favor if you expect to win any "official" dispute about this purchase. Opening packs is gambling. You need to demonstrate that your pulls are the result of tampering rather than bad luck.
You also have no proof that the results you listed were the ones you actually got. You could easily have listed any cards. If you provide a picture, you could easily have swapped the actual pulls with bulk from your binder.
While it's suspicious that the boxes were shipped without their factory packaging, you need to know, as Devonin said, whether the boxes were listed as factory sealed. If they weren't, you have no case. It's your responsibility to know what you're buying.
If you have the booster wrappers, you can, as Rayenous said, check the batch numbers and try to piece together whether packs actually were swapped. If the numbers line up, you have no case.
You can't return the product because you can't prove it's the product you received, and it's not in the same condition as it was when it was sold to you.
I'm all for helping you out, but you need to look at this from eBay/WOTC/the seller's perspective. You need proof because you're the one making the claim. If you can't provide substantial and undeniable proof, you have no case.
January 31, 2014 12:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
Also, the fact that you already took the liberty of leaving negative feedback without bothering to contact the seller is a very, very notable mark against you. eBay and sellers don't like to see negative feedback precede conflict resolution.
As far as eBay is currently concerned, the seller has done nothing wrong, and does not yet deserve negative feedback.
January 31, 2014 12:26 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #29
@Devonin It doesn't matter if they didn't state the boxes were factory sealed. They are obligated to provide an accurate description of the product. Neglecting to inform their customer of the possibility or certainty that the box has been mapped is fraudulent.
But you should always be wary of what you buy, read the description thoroughly and take action if anything is amiss on arrival.
January 31, 2014 12:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
@Schuesseled: It matters whether they defined the product as "new" or "unopened" as those are condition indicators.
January 31, 2014 1:01 p.m.
@OP x754 I'm glad you took the time to come here and post about this incident, however after reviewing your description, it sounds like you were enticed by a deal that was just barely good enough to be true and as a result made a purchase from an unauthorized dealer (AKA not an official wizards distributor like a Card shop or www.StarCityGames.com).
Buying anything online is always a gamble, because there's no way to garauntee that what you see on you computer monitor will be what shows up on your door step. Add that to the fact that your buying something that is inherently a gamble itself, the booster packs, and now you just squared the odds against you, that's insane.
If the packs show up, and are real, and untampered, they could still yield 36x Hellkite Tyrant , 36x Firemind's Foresight .. just complete garbage.
I would never add a layer of chance to an already game of chance scenario, if im gonna spend $50-$100 on new magic sealed product, I'm gonna make sure I get the real thing and I'm not gonna 'gamble' anymore than is inherently implied. I would suggest you adopt the same set of parameters for yourself next time you buy new product.
Also, why didn't you get a box of Return to Ravnica over Gatecrash??!
the first 5 charms including Azorius Charm
All cards you might've boosted as foils, assuming you bought untampered product, and not Gatecrash.
January 31, 2014 2:33 p.m.
"This is a box of 36 packs of the Magic the Gathering set 'Gatecrash'" is 100% accurate and complete whether the box was shrinkwrapped, mapped, literally made up of random boosters thrown in a previously empty box, whatever.
Unless they said "New" or "Factory Sealed" it is not fraud to describe what the item is because you feel they didn't describe it -enough-
That is why you contact sellers before making purchases.
January 31, 2014 4 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #33
If they omit details about an item, that the buyer should be made aware of, then that is fraud. That is a fact.
January 31, 2014 4:39 p.m.
They've only omitted information if you argue that it is impossible that anybody could fail to assume that "A box of 36 packs" and "A box of 36 untampered with, factory sealed packs" are the same thing, and I don't think you could.
Omitted information is not fraud. It's Caveat Emptor. If you -ASK- for more information and are refused, or misled or lied to, then yes, it is fraud.
When all of the words used to describe the product are truthful and correct, it is up to the buyer to establish where there ought to be more words but aren't.
January 31, 2014 4:45 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #35
Even if the seller didn't mention that the box was unopened or shrinkwrapped, all the buyer had to do was contact the seller saying the item isn't what they expected, and return the item for a refund. If the seller refused a refund, then the buyer should contact eBay and claim the description was misleading. Depending on the description, eBay will make a judgment call. But, since the buyer opened all the packs, there is no case.
January 31, 2014 4:51 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
We can back-and-forth about what the listing is and isn't, but the onus is still on the buyer to prove that he or she got something other than what he or she bought. If the auction didn't mention "new" or "sealed," then it's going to be much harder to claim that the product is not as advertised.
January 31, 2014 4:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik is right on the caveat emptor. The boxes weren't listed as being factory sealed or new or some such, and so I knew that I would not have a case if we argued to the letter of the listing. I also knew from the moment I decided to open the first pack that I was most likely destroying my case if I wished for a refund - which I couldn't prove without opening the packs because of the former.
HOWEVER -
Do you know why I decided to open them anyway?
Because I decided to believe:
- the past ~98% positive feedback received by the seller
- the majority of people are not malicious
- only one cause for doubt - the missing box seal - does not seem to be reasonable proof that the packs have been mapped, as opposed to any other number of accidental causes- as previously stated, the prices charged were on par with http://jjsfunstuff.com/magic-the-gathering-booster-boxesdeck-boxes.html - that is, not so low as to be suspicious- I received great combined shipping because the seller is located in my country, and internal postage is significantly cheaper- it is still not possible to prove the box was mapped unless the packs are opened
When I buy boxes, I always intend to play them sealed or draft, so I simply cut the top of each pack, look at the rares to track my binder, and shuffle the packs back into the box like a repack, because I always intend to keep all the cards after play. Indeed, now that I know where to look, the packs in the Dragon's Maze box, at least, carry three different serial numbers. The distribution of packs is 15 of one, 12 of the other, and 9 of the last.
Once again, HOWEVER -
This does not tell me that the box was mapped:
- the box could be assembled from packs won at FNM or refilled from some other source
- the numbers of packs carrying each serial number are simply too large - the seller needed to pull a whole 21 packs of money rares and mythics out of one box? Now that distribution of value cards looks too high for box mapping.
Once again, the only way to know whether the box has been mapped is to open the packs.
The Theros box and Gatecrash box boosters all carry matching serial numbers. They also carry at least a couple of mythics, which lessens the suspicion that we see in them. But this does not necessarily preclude the possibility of resealing packs either, regardless of difficulty.
In any case, two things.
First, I'm keeping and playing the damn packs either way. I have no time or interest in fighting over eBay for a case that I am highly unlikely to be able to defend.
Second, I didn't come here and post this only to get trashed by armchair lawyers about what I should have done to pursue my suspicions or how paranoid I should be about my purchases. You look at my thought process as detailed above, and tell me that I'm not a reasonable, thinking, intelligent buyer.
I didn't come here and post this only to hear no end about what I could have, should have done yesterday, because the entire event is already past. Nothing you say or I do can seal those packs again, and I could easily remind you of the fact much less politely.
The reason I'm posting is to ask what you, as members of the TappedOut community, might take as a following course of action in my position, or even with me. I'm asking you what happens NEXT.
January 31, 2014 9:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #38
@x754: I think part of the reason the conversation went in the direction it did was your last paragraph in the original post. You mentioned leaving negative feedback (which is a pretty serious thing for eBay sellers), and you had a vindictive tone throughout the post.
The discussion about whether you should do anything else (or whether you even should have done as much as you did) sprouted largely from those two things, and from your stated desire to stop this individual and the practice as a whole.
That said, I don't think anyone intended to "trash" you. Economic issues tend to be particularly serious, though, so the community as a whole will react strongly toward reports of scamming or sales issues. If you took it offensively, I'm sure that's not how it was intended to be interpreted.
For what is to be done in the future, there really is no true answer. The community has to be reactive; it's very difficult to stop plots like these before they do damage to at least one individual. However, due to the nature of eBay and online selling as a whole, it's dangerous to overreact. We need hard evidence before we can truly act.
January 31, 2014 9:53 p.m.
Same with them, if the seller posted in his description that they were supposed to be in original packaging or something to that effect, then yea, it's fraud/false advertising. the correct course of action would be to ship it back. but same as you, i also won't have time enough for that
having said that, i would have done the same - left a negative feedback. DGM is what, 160 cards and not one mythic in the box? not one scryland in GTC and Theros? i believe it's 4 mythics on average per box. least i've gotten is 3. and for lands, it's usually 3 per box, except DGM which has two shocklands (though 1 can transform into maze's end). i don't care if WotC confirmed this or not. my belief is from my personal experience, my friends' openings, and another retailer who also occasionally opens his own merchandise
your boxes were definitely mapped, and i feel sorry for you
wnorris17 says... #2
The best thing you could have done is send them right back as soon as you realized that there was no seal on the boxes. Ebay has protection for situations like this. Now that they are opened, I'm not sure if you have any course of action. You could try to argue the point with ebay (open a case with them) but no guarantees you will see your money back.
January 31, 2014 8:06 a.m.