Is Magic the Gathering Racially Diverse Enough?
General forum
Posted on June 23, 2015, 6:57 p.m. by SirFowler
Before I begin...
Let me start off by saying that I have not read much of the lore for magic, so if there are certain reasons, let me know.
Second, do not spout racist remarks or hate speeches. I will ask you to leave.
Third, if this is not the right forum, has been discussed before, or just gets out of hand, let me know Epochalyptik and I will just leave things alone. You can even close the forum it you want.
Now that I have your attention and have laid down some ground rules, shall we discuss?
I have been looking back on some cards and haven't seen many prominent figures for multiple races. The one card that comes to mind would be Koth of the Hammer, but why was he one of the few planeswalkers to actually die (or assumed dead)? Or is this just a coincidence and I'm just reading too much into this?
If you can come up with multiple cards to disprove my theory, please post them. I really don't want this to be true because I am a huge fan of Magic, but I just don't know if I can still go along with something that sets this kind of example.
InfiniteParadoX says... #3
Kamigawa Block - Japanese
Tarkir Block - Mongol Inspired
Lorwyn - Celtic Inspired (does that count? It should)
Arabian Nights - Duh.
This seems reasonably diverse for all of the real life inspired planes. I really hope SJW stuff doesn't come to MTG or T/O, I can't really handle dealing with that kind of stuff, it's just tiring.
June 23, 2015 7:03 p.m.
NoPantsParade says... #4
Oh my. You're reading too much into this. Maybe a bit too much.
June 23, 2015 7:04 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #5
Racism implies that a person/group believes their race to be superior to other races. The term really has no application to WotC or MtG.
Now if you are asking if they include ample diversity of skin colors on the cards they print, they do. Actually they seem to do a bang up job of that in my opinion.
June 23, 2015 7:05 p.m.
NoPantsParade says... #6
Also one example doesn't exactly prove your theory to be true.
But to answer your question before I go out, no, I wouldn't say MTG is racist.
I do know, or recall, something similar about how females are portrayed in Magic.
June 23, 2015 7:05 p.m. Edited.
Servo_Token says... #7
Racial Bias according to your primary market and actual racism are not the same thing. WotC is not racist. They have never said anything about blanket hatred, disdain, or general lack of willingness to care for or acknowledge any particular race. When you think Magic player, who do you think of? Out-of-shape white people ages 15-30? That's the main stereotype because it's also the main demographic, so WotC tries to appeal to them by making their characters look like that group.
If anyone is introducing racial bias into magic, it is the artists, though this is also completely untrue. There is zero percent racism in Magic, and no reason for you to think that there could potentially be.
June 23, 2015 7:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
It's pretty hard to make an African American in a game that doesn't feature America, huh?
Or an African in a game that doesn't feature Earth?
June 23, 2015 7:08 p.m. Edited.
So I'm right to say that I'm just reading too much into this. I'm not sure why I even thought of this sort of thing.
June 23, 2015 7:12 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #10
To derail a little bit, can I bring up that I hate that the term African American is the "correct" way to address black people in this country?
As a Canadian American, I feel extreme prejudice that people that aren't even from and never intend to visit Africa are labeled as African. My dad's dad was straight-off-the-boat Italian, am I an Italian American? No, i'm just some little prick that needs to check his white privileges...
June 23, 2015 7:15 p.m.
I can't recall many non-white people on cards? Maybe it is a little whitewashed. It is interesting that they visit a lot of planes based on different races and yet as far as I can recall most of the characters on cards we see are white anyway. You could think of it as... not racist per se but slightly..... dodgy.... that there don't appear to be large numbers of non-whites represented.
Rasta_Viking29 - can you link to some non-white faces in magic? I actually legit can't think of any past Teferi and Koth. That's my own implicit biases coming up.
Epochalyptik - If it were racist, which I'm not entirely sure it is, I don't think the fantasy argument is a valid strategy. You have a fantasy world. You can do anything you want. You choose, or forget, to include nonwhite individuals. I mean if necromancy exists then you're going to have a hard time persuading me that nonwhite individuals shouldn't. It's a bit.... jarring?
But I honestly don't know if it's racist or not. I'm white so I'm not sensitive to these things. Somethign feels not right but I can't articulate it.
June 23, 2015 7:16 p.m. Edited.
inb4 Invoke Prejudice.
I am not sure if Koth actually died. Venser and Elspeth are dead for sure, but Koth was never actually confirmed.
Magic has done nothing to suggest racism, and while there have been a few "undesirable" artists (see the first card I posted), they have actually been quite inclusive over their history.
June 23, 2015 7:19 p.m.
I updated the title to actually to accommodate what I actually meant to say.
@ Epochalyptik If that's true, then how were they able to include Arabian Nights into a set if Earth doesn't actually exist?
Sorry if it seems like I'm an antagonist, but I just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts. I am in no way trying to start anything, I just wanted to disprove my theory.
June 23, 2015 7:21 p.m.
ThatJunkMage: So there are evidently examples around.
It's probably not racist in actuality - it may just be a little culturally insensitive or lacking diversity.
Its not like 'woah shit this is really racist' it's at the bottom of the spectrum with a lack of general effort, perhaps.
June 23, 2015 7:22 p.m.
@ThatJunkMage Sorry, it's just sometimes difficult to word things. Some people may find terms like African American to be the correct term while others would find it to misleading. I'm just never good at descriptions, so I never know what to say. That's why I don't like labels. They can be incredibly confusing.
June 23, 2015 7:27 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #17
No fault against you specifically, its just the social ineptitude that americans leak. People get way too offended way too easily, and way too many other people care for them when they do
June 23, 2015 7:31 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #18
Well I'm on the move at the moment so only two easy ones:
Narset, Enlightened Master
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
We just got done with a block full of races depicting a diverse amount of Asians. The two heroes were Asian. I honestly think the focus on blacks when it comes to race is petty. Indians, Hispanics, and Native Americans are all truly under represented if you are trying to make a point.
All said this has absolutely nothing to do with racism.
June 23, 2015 7:37 p.m.
@GoofyFoot I thought Koth exploded. I probably should read more of the lore before saying things that may or may not be true.
June 23, 2015 7:38 p.m.
Yeah I don't think there's any overt 'this race is better than this other race' type stuff going on. I just have this feeling there may be under-representation of many races. This isn't a HUGE issue but it does mean something.
Khans was certainly a block with an Eastern theme in a general sense, but I don't recall a significant proportion of individuals with Asian features. Like, it's kind of insulting to do an Asian block and fill it with white characters - but there were a good few nonwhite characters in there. It would be interesting to actually add it all up to compare but I can't be bothered right now. I know someone added up all the men in cards and all the women for a set like M11 and it ended up being 90%/10%. I haven't seen anything like that done for race.
But no I'm not sure this is overt racism.
June 23, 2015 7:42 p.m.
Im not sure if you're all about the lack of black or non-white faces between all humans, planeswalkers or creatures in general. No matter which one is the major issue, without much effort we can find figures like:
and many, many, many, many others. I guess accusing this game as such (or even it's makers) of racism is as explanable as it was about Witcher 3. Let's not make serious problems where they, seriously, don't exist.
June 23, 2015 7:47 p.m.
I would like to see more races being represented in the world of magic. I wonder if they're going to include Indian culture or Native American culture in the future. I guess they have included some Indian culture with cards like Ivory Tower (the older versions), but nothing as pronounced as including an entire set for said culture.
June 23, 2015 7:50 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
Mirrodin is its own plane. Further, my point was not much "it's fantasy so it can't be racist". It's "why are we going through the exercise of calling things what they aren't?"
Koth of the Hammer is black. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is black. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is white. IF you wanted to apply nation-based labels to these people, you would use their canonical homes. Calling Koth of the Hammer an African American is as senseless (a term I've here used in restraint) as calling Snapcaster Mage Chinese or Japanese or Korean or any number of other Eastern Asiatic nationalities. It's simply wrong, and it betrays a tendency on your part to think of these issues in only the terms you're most used to or that you think are "politically correct."
Basically, what ThatJunkMage said.
EDIT: Well, if you want Native American, I guess we'll just have to wait for a Return to Earth set. Seriously, why are you concerned with representing cultures that exist here? If race is even a concern (see next section), what possible reason do you offer for shoehorning canonically irrelevant races into the game purely to appease people? I'd argue that third-party offense-taking is inherently more asinine, presumptuous, and yes, racist than simply allowing what makes sense in the game and lobbying to develop dimensions that actually make sense.
As for whether the game is racist, I don't think it is. I think ChiefBell gave a fairly honest assessment of the situation: race simply doesn't play a big part in the game's design. Nor, in my opinion, should it. Who cares what race the characters are. What possible significance does that have to the game (from a practical standpoint; I don't care about the lore weenies)?
It's like the debate some time ago about whether WOTC was being "gender insensitive" by not including transgender, or even multigender (thanks Tumblr), options in their account creator. I don't think they were. It's just a general lack of concern over the issue. I suppose you could, if you really wanted to please Tumblr, claim that they're sexist or genderist or whatever the -ist of the moment is by omission and should check their privilege. But is it really honest to advance that claim? Probably not.
June 23, 2015 7:51 p.m. Edited.
GlistenerAgent says... #24
In Magic's early days, societies on Earth played a bigger part (there's a card called Jihad) because the game had not yet fully developed the idea of player's being planeswalkers and the concept of planes had not yet worked into the gameplay. Nowadays, racism in our sense of the word is nowhere to be found because there are no actual races that matter to us. Wizards can be racist against Goblins, but who really cares?
Racism and lack of diversity isn't an issue.
June 23, 2015 7:55 p.m.
It matters in terms of how likely an individual is to play the game. You're less likely to be attracted to something that doesn't include people like you. Exclude a certain demographic of people and those people become less likely to purchase the product. So there's a big practical point.
Also again, I don't think a lack of concern totally, 100% excuses you of being insensitive, but that's an aside and not so important here. Claiming ignorance or laziness or a lack of forethought in general just really doesn't cut it though.
Do not mistake what I am saying for something else though. I am saying 'I do not think that racism in this specific example is an issue', I am not saying 'under-representation as a whole concept is not an issue'.
Epochalyptik - I think how wizards addresses the players of the game and how wizards addresses the people in the game are really separate so this isn't like the gender options form thing.
June 23, 2015 7:57 p.m. Edited.
VampireArmy says... #26
I don't think the fantasy argument works for mtg as wotc borrows lore and stories from real life places.
June 23, 2015 8:31 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #28
All I'm saying is if you're borrowing lore from real life places, the geography and people should also reflect it too.
June 23, 2015 8:52 p.m.
KablamoBoom says... #29
I'd tend to say Magic is whitewashed. (I don't think Koth died though, more of a "Nobody could survive that...but we never found the body" kind of thing.) 61% of walkers are male (one unknown, one robot), and 66% of planeswalker CARDS are guys. A far cry from 50%. Of those, there's only two black planeswalkers, with one card each, equating to ~3%. Not exactly phenomenal representation. (Ignoring for now the fact that at least 20% of these aren't human, not counting kor and elves.)
Yes, this is a problem; regardless of fantasy setting, the creators (mind you that's a TON of people all with minor influences) represented white dudes more than other races, genders, etc. Unconscious or not, that's how it is. It's their main audience, it's a marketing strategy - yet it's still a problem.
However, the most recent set SPECIFICALLY included a trans character, an autistic character, and a cast representative of Chinese people and mythology. And it's definitely not the first set to do as such. There's now six Chinese- or Japanese-based planeswalker cards, amounting to ~13% of human walkers! I'd say at the very least Magic has always pushed the envelope, and more recently has had fantastic inclusion of tons of minorities.
June 23, 2015 8:55 p.m.
Who's the autistic character? It's just out of curiosity.
June 23, 2015 9 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #31
"Should" is a very precarious thing to say. Ultimately, none of us have license to say what "should" be done with someone else's intellectual property. We may voice concerns, but we do not dictate what should be. That is the express license of the creator/designer (or the team that fulfills those roles). The same goes for "ought," which is just a variation of "should."
Further, inspiration does not necessitate absolute honesty to the source. Otherwise it would be duplication.
Now with that said, I do think it's legitimate to argue that Wizards would be wise to consider the significance of diversity to an increasingly socially conscious community.
June 23, 2015 9:03 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #32
Narset is autistic i think?
Also I'd appreciate people to drop the term "whitewashed" it's a term too often used against my black sister, nieces, and nephews to shame them for being raised by white parents. If you want to talk about racism great but drop the racist terms while we're at it
June 23, 2015 9:05 p.m.
KablamoBoom says... #33
@VampireArmy: I meant no offense, my apologies. What phrase would you use?
@ Epochalyptik: Certainly, I was loose with my words. Your post pretty well sums up what I'd hoped to say.
June 23, 2015 9:14 p.m.
Here's an issue I've seen now that people have shown a list of racially diverse cards. Where are the non-white walkers? Just in origins we have five walkers from five different planes that i guess have all white people living on them. I agree that it's not racist, but racially diverse it is not. I'm not saying they've done wrong in this omission but i would love to see more diversity in my main cover characters instead of it being limited to mostly side characters
June 23, 2015 9:19 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #35
Epoch: i was using "should" from a place of logic not authority. Of course they have the right to do whatever they want with thier property. however logically speaking it makes no sense to borrow so heavily from cultures of the real world yet not have that contentment reflect at least the culture it borrows from. Even deeper than just the color of skin, but the clothing and society too among other things.
Boom: why is there a term for something being too white? That itself seems to be an issue to me. Is it not racist to say "man this game is too blackwashed" "this show is waaaay too Asianwashed" it jusy sounds bad
June 23, 2015 9:20 p.m.
KablamoBoom says... #36
@VampireArmy: I get "whitewashed" as a phrase for something being too white, and therefore incorrect. Should I say it's just not racially diverse?
@bigv54: That is perhaps my biggest problem with Origins. The second biggest problem being how BORING all the characters are. Jace is the most tropey mary sue in all Magic. Here's hoping they change both things throughout release.
June 23, 2015 9:38 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #37
Once again, inspiration does not necessitate duplication. Anyone is well within rights to imitate something and change any aspect of it; in creative terms, you are under no license to keep or drop any aspect of your work.
The idea you seem to want to advance is that there's some obligation or expectation that inspired works will remain true to their sources. While this is an understandable expectation, it is not in itself a serious argument for keeping something the same.
June 23, 2015 10:11 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #38
I don't have the expectation that inspired works will stay 100% true to the source material. I expect some level of it in the idea that this game is built upon immersing the players into these worlds.
Put it this way, how much sense would it make if on innistrad, the population was 90% black and wore traditional gear based on African tribes while having a storyline based on victorian europe? Would that make for a very immersive lore?
We could look at cards like Tasigur and Narset as previously mentioned. Should narset be dressed in scottish wargear and Tasigur in a monk outfit?
What if Tasigur had an English name?
Does any of that makes sense?
June 23, 2015 10:28 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #39
KablamoBoom I apologize if I came off as rude to you. I don't mean to single you out. I think not racially diverse enough covers the problem adequately and I thank you for taking my thoughts into consideration though you didn't have to. I've lived in a lot of different homes of different race and religion. Intolerance for anything bothers me quite a bit.
June 23, 2015 10:32 p.m.
Ok, I'm pretty sure this forum post has run its course. We seem to be circling back to the same things that don't need to be revisited. For that reason, I unsubscribe.
June 23, 2015 10:33 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #42
You have a point, sure, but at some point creative modification requires some degree of suspension of disbelief. If you require that certain things not be changed, or that certain things must necessarily remain the same, then you limit the freedom of the artist to explore new ideas and challenge old ones. Art (to include literature) frequently makes progress through exactly those kinds of challenges.
To your point about an "Africanized" Innistrad: it might. It depends on the way it's executed. If WOTC had integrated a largely black cast into Victorian Europe (what is traditionally considered a white fantasy setting) in an interesting and creative way, then maybe it would have been immersive. Maybe it would have been fun. And maybe it wouldn't have. Maybe the concept would have felt forced in its execution and broken the connection to the players. The point is, it seems wiser to judge something based on its execution and the merit of the final product rather than on the degree to which it fails to expand upon its roots.
June 23, 2015 11:06 p.m. Edited.
VampireArmy says... #43
that's what I'm doing or at least I'm hoping to make the point that i am?
To be fairly honest i think Wotc does an excellent job at keeping true to the source well enough. Could they do better? Possibly. Will they? I would think so considering thier current campain to expand the game to other people.
June 23, 2015 11:10 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #44
I'm also very Against shoe-horning things that don't make sense logically as i stated above.
Like if mirrodin was a dominatingly Caucasian plane it would literally defy logic because they have 5 suns there. Can't imagine that would feel good on the skin.
On that note i think it would be interesting to see the Planeswalkers skin tan or pale depending in the climate (at least the human ones)
June 23, 2015 11:17 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #45
Your examples only really serve to reinforce the idea that you're siding more with the source than with creative license, even if that's not what you intend to convey.
As for what WOTC will do, it's likely that sets or planes that reference real world settings will continue to stay close to the source material. WOTC tends to use its non-referential settings to demonstrate their creativity whereas it tends to use referential settings as a way to connect with fans via a familiar medium. That's the function of blocks like Innistrad and Theros. That's their appeal. That's not to say that a less traditional rendition wouldn't be successful, interesting, or worth pursing; rather, WOTC tends not to put much distance between the source and their own product because that's not their MO on those products.
June 23, 2015 11:17 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #46
As for shoehorning, there's a distinction between forcing an idea in an attempt to appease critics and developing an idea on the basis of its artistic or creative merit.
For example, WOTC saying "You know, they're right. Blacks are underrepresented in the Magic cast. Let's add 30% more random black characters to the next set" would be shoehorning diversity into the game because it disrupts the game's architecture and vision in an attempt to satiate dissenters in the simplest and fastest way possible.
Conversely, WOTC might tactfully address concerns about lack of racial diversity or underrepresentation of certain player demographics by doing precisely what you considered earlier to be preposterous. Maybe we'll see a great rendition of the Holy Roman Empire with primarily black constituents and a plane and story that organically support that kind of faction. Maybe merchants and travelers could be used as opportunities for further representation of demographics that would have real reasons to be there.
Business functions aside, the primary opportunity with an expansive and developed world (or multiverse, in this case) is the freedom to explore these new realms and to cultivate new ground as you do so.
June 23, 2015 11:31 p.m. Edited.
VampireArmy says... #47
We'll have to wait and see. So far all we have to go on is theories and previous statements.
I'll hold my judgment until then i suppose
keshav says... #2
Off the top of my head, Teferi also appears to be of African descent (both the creature and the planeswalker).
June 23, 2015 7 p.m.