Go back to the comments from before the major update if you want to see why Talrand isn't in a higher tier. The discussion was absolutely beaten to death, then resurrected only to be beaten some more. Link

Yeah... I see what you mean. Nevermind then.

While I can appreciate your Sidisi deck, the difference between a deck that loses to one counterspell Andy no less than two is very huge. In addition my deck still affects the board state and disrupts others while ramping. Since I played it, not once have I been killed before I try to go off. Out of the 30ish games I've played, I've lost two due to a double counterspell. All others were won, and almost all of those tier one commanders fall in that list.

@sonnet666

I run an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck, and by no means is it fully optimized. Also I really do not want to argue for or against him because I have a bias.

But, I will agree that his power level and possible consistency can should be pondered. The way I play him is not the way most decks are run and by turn eight (if Omnath survives the round) it's typical game over. I know turn eight is slow. But like I said it is not optimized. And honestly I am more bringing him up because your comment seemed to have been overlooked.

The deck is a burn deck, which in edh multiplayer is a huge disadvantage, but it is also a very aggressive deck. It swings when it can, usually for a hefty amount. And it has a rattlesnake effect. Between Warstorm Surge type effects a fetch land has the potential to burn some ten damage, or keep opponents creatures off the field.

Honestly though, what I really think sets him apart from other decks is his ability to ignore the stack. That alone is something that should not be overlooked. By playing a land (with Omnath on the field) I am getting a 5/5 for sure. Add in cards like Elemental Bond and a land becomes a cantrip. Throw in cards like Greater Good and Life's Legacy and you are getting 2 or 5 cards for the price of one, plus you are burning someone.

The deck combos with Perilous Forays and at least 3 other cards that I can think of Amulet of Vigor, Lotus Cobra, and Mana Echoes.

However, I will admit, the 7 CMC is a huge draw back. Not only is it 7 mana but it's 2 green and 2 red. Well turn two Omnath is possible it is highly unlikely. Turn three is only possible with cards like Sol Ring.

I know Titania, Protector of Argoth is getting mover out of tier two (at least I think that's what was decided) but Omnath, Locus of Rage is pretty similar to her, but has red to abuse.

The deck encourages ramp so it will typically have more basic lands out so Early Harvest pretty much becomes a take an extra turn spell for 3 mana (at least in my build it does).

He does lack tutors (expect for creatures) but I personally think copy spells are underused in edh. They protect your combo pieces (from spell combos), they become more ramp, they can become tutors. And in competitive play I feel like an opponent playing a tutor is more probably. However, a deck shouldn't depend on its opponents. So those copy spells still have use if your opponent has a creature heavy deck.

I am simple stating some of his synergies. I do not agree or disagree with him moving up or staying put. But I do not want his power to be overlooked.

MagicalHacker So if someone plays a Smokestack and puts two counters on it you'll still be able to win with that build? I don't think so. What about a Brago deck that's resetting Tangle Wire and Winter Orb? Or Nevermore?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your deck is bad. It has a wonderful advantage of having it's two weaknesses being looked down upon by two subsets of players (Aggro by the competitive/spikey crowd and land disruption by the more casual players), but I am saying that it's still not the optimized way to play Maelstrom.

Aggro-Blaster: This isn't something we have to decide right now. I'm planning on putting together what I think is an optimized build and seeing how it runs. Also Titania is staying in T2 for now pending further testing.

I play Titania, protector of Argoth (as well as Mizzix and Maelstrom W) - and if built and played along a purer Lands focus - no need for stax - she is very Tier2 - i win against, GBx, Zur, Scion, Xenagos and the New Kozilek, decks - in a competitive meta. Animar is too fast and Damia is hard but the GBx player always has Sheoldred out by turn3 or such shennanigans. Titiana is definitely T2

I was unaware that 'GBx' was a thing in EDH. If you're talking about someone who just threw together a bunch of cards in whatever color combination the 'x' herein signifies, well, I can't say that that's what I would call 'GBx', myself. Too easily confused with what that term has come to represent in other formats.

Alright, a little PSA of sorts for you guys. I strongly suggest that you read this before suggesting your commander.

There are main, established archetypes in competitive EDH. These may not be the only ones, but they are probably the strongest ones.

1. Stax: Mana denial, MLD, lockdown (Brago, Derevi, Teferi PW)

2. Combo: Storm, 2/3-card combos, Ad Nauseam (Jelava, Karador, Zur)

3. Control: Counters, draw (Azami, that's really it)

4. Hybrid/Midrange: Hatebears, toolbox, combo (Yisan, Saffi, Selvala)

These are powerful archetypes, and usually each would be able to compete. Some have better matchups than others, but they are roughly even (though control is usually lower).

Now, there are usually baselines for each of these archetypes.

Stax: Usually locks down by turn 4/5/6, as early as turn 2.

Combo: Usually combos off by turn 4/5/6, as early as turn 1.

Control: Usually gets a draw engine by turn 2/3, tries to stop the combo player

Hybrid: Usually can toolbox a counter to an opponent by turn 3/4

If your deck isn't even close to these guidelines, then there's a problem. I'm not saying that it can't possibly be good, but these should be used as a starting point. For example, my Jace, Vryn's Prodigy deck can very consistently combo off turn 4, while my Selvala deck can combo off turn 6. However, Selvala runs a significantly larger suite of removal, stax, and interaction than Jace. My Brago deck usually combos off turn 7 or 8, but since its main function is a stax deck, it's hard for them to interact with Strionic Resonator. Azami doesn't win too quickly, but can act as the policeman of the table, and when they land Mind Over Matter, they usually can counter the table's removal.

So what does this tell us? Just because your Ib Halfheart deck does well in your local casual meta doesn't mean it deserves to be Tier 1. Be realistic. Can it stop the combo player by turn 4? Can it interact with a Static Orb? Can your deck win through counters, wraths, and MLD? If no, then it probably isn't tier 1.

Can anyone explain to me why Sliver Queen is Tier Two, and Sliver Overlord is Tier Three? I just can't comprehend that. Yes, she can quickly explode your board state, but Sliver Overlord can tutor up ANY SLIVER YOU NEED at INSTANT SPEED. He's the ultimate toolbox commander for Slivers. Why would he be ranked as inferior to Sliver Queen, and on par with Sliver Hivelord?

@Trevor225isfly: It's because Sliver Queen has a bunch of infinite combos that win the game really fast. Sliver Overlord's tutoring is very powerful, but the Queen's infinite combos push her ahead.

On the other hand, if I was gonna build the deck, I would personally run Sliver Overlord as the commander and run Sliver Queen in the 99, as the Overlord can just tutor her up. But that's just me :P

So I'm curious; when someone says that a deck can do something "consistently", what percentage of the time does the deck have to be able to achieve that action to qualify? Chance still has an effect on how a deck performs, so you cannot guarantee that a deck will be able to achieve a particular action 100% of the time. If you are gold-fishing a deck and not taking disruption into account, how many games (out of ten) would you expect a deck to be able to perform a specific action for it to qualify as being able to "consistently" perform that action?

For example: You expect a competative combo deck to consistently combo off by turn 4. How many games out of ten would you expect the deck to be able to achieve that for it to qualify as "consistent"?

I usually consider 75-80% to be consistent in EDH. That allows for uncontrollable contingencies like having to Mull to five.

I personally think Zada, Hedron Grinder should be moved up a tier. With that general, I have seen many consistent turn 6 kills.

@NarejED From your experience; to what degree would you say that the shift to the Vancouver mulligan rule has affected the consistency of competative EDH decks?

Leinahtan your whole comment just reeks of EDH elitism and "if you don't play stax or control, then your Commander isn't worthy of even being considered for anything higher than shit tier." not sure if that's what you meant, but that's definitely how you came off to me.

s4s_FlavorTown, I think we've had this discussion before and gave Zada a "maybe" on being T3. It's just that last time around no one posted any decklists for reference that seemed optimized, so it kind of got dropped.

canterlotguardian, Tone is really hard to convey properly on the internet. Leinahtan did start off his post saying he was discussing archetypes of competitive EDH, so I don't think he was trying to be elitist. There is a reason tiers 1 & 2 have (competitive) after them.

SaberTech, the mulligan rule change mostly effected competitive combo decks that have less access to tutors, and ones that have key pieces with high mana costs.

Leinahtan, I am VERY interested to see a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip deck that consistently combos off on turn 4. This is the first I'm hearing about this, and I wasn't aware that there even were any combos with him. Jace is in T4 right now, and personally I would rank him even lower, but people seem to like him, and blue is a good color, so...

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip is making waves (pun intended) as the commander of a High Tide deck. He's a bit stronger in Duel Commander than in regular due to his low CMC, but he is gaining popularity in multiplayer Commander as well.

@canterlotguardian Lei might sound a bit elitist to you, but he's actually right in his assessment. CEDH has established archetypes just like every other MtG format. There are obviously exceptions and decks that don't fit into a given box, but for the most part, Combo, Midrange, Stax, and to a lesser extent traditional Control are indeed the main archetypes that the majority of optimized decks in the format fit into.

I actually really like the Vancouver Mulligan rule ad a competitive EDH player. It neutered the whole format so it was a welcome change. It hurt combo the most, but still hurt the stomp decks at the same time.

@ Lorderos23 I'm not a tournament competitor, but I have what probably qualifies as a tier 2 Animar combo build. When the mulligan rule changed I noticed a definite slip in the deck's consistency, so I've had to re-tune it to get its previous level of consistency back. I've been curious about what effect the rule change has had on other people's competative decks and if particular Commanders have weathered the change better than others.

Both my Kaalia and Prossh decks have had to up the land count by at least 2. I used to run 32 in Kaalia and 34 in Prossh.

Kaalia is my baby so she gets tuned a lot.

Prossh needed a few more lands than normal because he had so many " do nothing" hands. Granted my Prossh list is pretty meta'd. So some of the choices are because he draws so much hate.

Every commander with a CMC over 4 took at least a small hit, particularly those that didn't have green in their identities (Narset, Sharuum, etc). Devoted combo decks that rely on multiple pieces were also hit heavily (Prossh, Sharuum again, etc. I've heard more stax-oriented Sharuum engine builds have started becoming more popular since the devoted combo version was hit so hard.)

The decks affected the least were those that had low-CMC commanders that can win on their own without support. Yisan, Sisay, Zur, and Arcum came out the least-scathed when everything was said and done.

Kaalia was actually OK wit the new rule so far. She has preformed better across the board. I'm almost to the point of adding Grim Tutor back, because she feels tier
1.5 again in the local meta. Ad long ad AzamI and Zur don't show up, she rapes.

By the way, I think that someone may have said this before, but a Xenagod or Kaalia deck would be decently competitive if built right. You'd have to build them into a stax archetype, and know your meta well, but if you build Xenagod as a bunch of dorks, Null Rod, Torpor Orb, and Root Maze, you would destroy my Brago deck. This is why I think that Hybrid is the best archetype right now, as a deck like Yisan can get a fast combo or beatdown, but can also counter decks with Phyrexian Revoker and Bane of Progress.

@Jazzyboy I run overlord because I can win turn 2 with him, if I get some artifact mana shenanigans going on. Queen you have to be SUPER lucky, because there arent many combo pieces, and not enough tutor spells to make her more viable than Overlord.

But its an opinion. Ahem andwaymorepeoplerunOverlordbecausehesstronger

Queen is Tier 2 because she's somewhat useful to some 5C combo decks. She has multiple methods of generating infinite mana. Sliver Overlord is Tier 3 because he's really only useful for Sliver Tribal, which is a Tier 3 deck. We've had this conversation on here multiple times before.