Don't you guys think Burn could use this?
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 15, 2017, 5:56 a.m. by WizardOfTheNorthernCoast
Hello all,
So I just saw this card a second ago. I immediately thought about putting this in a RBx Burn shell.
It is, so to say, never a bad draw:
- 3 mana draw 3 is great. We've seen Modern decks run Painful Truths. You draw 3 lands, too bad, but it means it's 3 turns you won't have to wait for gas.
- Draw 2 + Bump in the Night effect for 3 mana is really good.
- Deals 6 damage + cantrips is really good too.
Honestly, I don't see much disadvantage running this card in a Burn shell. It draws you card while burning your opponent if they don't want you to have them. And 3 damage is what they gonna take to the face anyways, so unless they really don't want us to have this lethal Boros Charm or Lightning Bolt their dude, this should go really fine for us.
With the late Claim - Vexing Devil tech, I was already thinking of going Mardu Burn. Now I really think I'll do that.
Thoughts?
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #3
Sure, I know and admit that letting your opponent the choice is bad. But Browbeat will deal 5 max everytime and if your opponent takes the damage, the card draw is negated.
Here, we're talking 9 potential damage max (or some damage + card draw) if you opp really don't want us to have any of the revealed cards. The fact that, in Burn, the majority of our spells deals 3 damage got me thinking though. It gets closer to a 3 mana draw 3 revealed cards than anything else and I still can't tell if it's good or not. Needs to be tested for sure.
September 15, 2017 7:56 a.m. Edited.
If it read Draw 2 Bolt then that would be acceptable, if it read draw 1 hit for 6 that would be okay too.. But it doesnt, it reads look at the top 3 cards and take all of the ones that are completely irrelevant to the match. And since the average value of your spells is 3 damage to the face, they've got little incentive to pick damage unless youre flooded with Swiftspears. And it also turns your Boros Charms in to Bolts. If a creature would wreck their hand they get to bin it and if theyve been sitting on 3 Pushes the whole game they get to laugh as you try to waste even more mana. Browbeat effects aren't good
September 15, 2017 8:36 a.m.
I understand that giving your opponent choices is a good way to get yourself in a bad situation. But what situations will this get you in? Well I think this card would go best (if anywhere) in a burn deck. And I think most people agree on that.
we'll try and prevent some of the more obvious problems of letting your opponent pick spells by going with creatureless burn.
The thing is in that deck this card will almost always be 2B: draw 3. What card would they want to take 3 to stop you from getting? Lava Spike? Probably not because why take 3 when you can let you opponent spend a mana to do it. Of all the 1 drops you would play the only one that's even debatable is bolt itself cause you could target one of their creatures. For all 2 drops it's still pretty beneficial in most cases to let the burn player draw and use helix rather than take 3 because that way they have to spend the 2 mana to deal 3 to you. Boros Charm does 4 but compared to taking 3 you made the burn player spend 2 mana to deal 1 damage. Again only one I feel is really debatable is Searing Blaze for same reason as bolt. And if you flip a land or another diplomacy they'll let you have it because land won't hurt them and another reveal 3 means another turn of burn not dealing any damage. So basically almost every result is let the burn player draw the spell.
So the question in my mind is only really "would burn want a 2B: draw 3"
Note: I'm looking at this from a modern perspective. Legacy/other formats might over different results and I cannot speak to what I think this card will do in those.
September 15, 2017 12:35 p.m.
No, Browbeat isn't a good card. There are countless threads online explaining why. This card bears a striking resemblance to Browbeat, but has a higher potential damage output at the cost of giving your opponent even more control over what you draw.
September 15, 2017 12:51 p.m.
@Zaueski: That's honestly the best argument I've heard against this new Browbeat...that it turns your Boros Charms into Lightning Bolts.
September 15, 2017 2:30 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #8
sylvannos and really it turns them into Lava Spikes. That's even worse. Not that burn tends to care all that much, but eh. Boros Charm into Lava Spike is no bueno.
September 15, 2017 2:46 p.m.
The way I look at this is worst case scenario either you're top decking or close to it when you cast this, you hit 3 lands and your opponent gives you all 3 lands. You just avoided a 3 land pocket that would have cost you 3 turns 4 if you include the turn you cast this card. Now you avoid that issue.
September 15, 2017 4:36 p.m.
I suppose I should explain fully why it isn't very good.
Firstly, though this is a more minor point, most burn decks tend towards naya colors since they have the best burn. If black had better burn than just Bump in the Night, they might consider black instead. But I doubt that Wizards is planning on printing seriously good black aggro cards in the near future.
Plus, we also need to rule out an easy option or two of choice. You already have 3 lands if you're casting this; as far as burn goes, that's almost too many. It also means that, say, 1/2 of your deck (lands, creatures that outlived their purposes, circumstantial sideboard cards, or even more copies of this) are "dead" cards. That puts the "average" damage output of the card to about 5 should your opponent choose to stick those in your hand.
Now the more complicated ideas. The opponent gets to choose what's beneficial for them - that means that if they don't have a way to kill a creature, they'll just have you mill it and gladly take the 3. If the opponent has removal, but no counters, they'll let you have the creatures. If your opponent has Spell Snare or Mana Leak, they'll give you the Boros Charm, and so on so on. Put simply, there are two components to card advantage: real and virtual. "Real" is having a hand of 7 cards versus your opponent's 1; virtual card advantage is your opponent having the kill with Past in Flames in their graveyard while your hand is just full of vanilla creatures. Virtual card advantage is way more important than literal advantage, and you're letting your opponent make it as bad as possible.
Plus, the damage-per-mana ratio is pitiful. Remember the average of around 5 damage for 3 mana? You can get way more efficient with Bolts and Boros Charms.
September 16, 2017 5:25 p.m.
As someone that has been playing burn for 3 years, hell no.
January 9, 2018 7:25 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #12
A bit late to the party but thanks for the crazy input there GunBallad ;)
Lame_Duck says... #2
It's a common mistake with this kind of card to only think of it in terms of the mana efficiency of the possible outcomes but the real issue is with its reliability. No Magic card is good in every situation and by giving the opponent the choice of outcome you multiply the number of scenarios in which it will be a bad card. It's the opposite effect to the Charm cycle where, despite the fact that the card is mana-inefficient for the individual outcomes, its extra flexibility makes it good.
Now, that's not to say that the card is automatically bad - a situational card can be worth running - but it's more complicated than simply looking at the mana cost and Browbeat has historically been a pretty terrible card.
September 15, 2017 7:27 a.m.