BTW, there are more cards in Grixis (34) than any other shard. Bant has 32, the others less). And that doesn't count the new Bolases (Boli?) or other Grixis cards we may see in HOU.
June 14, 2017 3:15 p.m.
miracle If I can remember, I'll see if I can find gameplay with it after release. Tribal support in dragons is actually very easy to find.
June 10, 2017 8:19 a.m.
I will continue to state that wasitora should not be used, however, if you show me a game where she was phenomenal (excluding obvious outliers such as 3 swordx&y on her) I might have to take a new stance. Until then, this was fun, thanks!
June 9, 2017 7:10 p.m.
miracle Yes, they fit in different archetypes. Or more accurately, Grave Titan fits into most archetypes, Wasitora is just alright in dragons. A good filler card, not exactly a centerpoint of the deck. Kind of like a a smaller and much weaker O-Kagachi.
June 9, 2017 5:14 p.m.
Since you bring up other cards, wasitora becomes much better. With this in mind, if I am playing a ghave token deck, and I cast Collective Blessing with a Grave Titan in play (same effect for all intensive purposes) titan is still better. Or, even more effective would be Lure + Grave Titan, turning into a 9 mana Hex that also pops 4 2/2 zombies.
In terms of the available colors, Prossh would be a better general for competitive, Karrthus would be a better general for casual, and Hellkite Overlord is a better beater overall (regenerate!) and is worth the mana cost difference (haste!). While better cards do not necessarily mean that wasitora is bad, in EDH, a 5/4 with an edict/cat (other cards notwithstanding) attached is underwhelming, and otherwise weak. A 5-mana dragon i would rather play (in most situations) is Scourge of Valkas.
June 9, 2017 3:27 p.m.
miracle The one major advantage of Wasitora is the relevant tribe (no, not cats). With Crucible of Fire, Dragon Tempest, etc. it looks way more attractive. Actually, all the dragons spoiled so far barring Ur-Dragon seem way more attractive with the cost reduction. Barring that, Grave Titan is definitely better.
June 9, 2017 2:24 p.m.
Oh, I still feel as though Cat Dragon is still bad, though I am biased because I think cat-dragon hybrid is &()&%&$&$#*%$&%#%$@%$#%$@%$#&. Edict effects run into the problem of "okay, i will sacrifice a Noble Hierarch instead of my rafiq", or "okay... I will sacrifice a 2/2 zombie token". Against green decks (ramp, tokens, big creatures), the edict does not matter. Against blue decks, creatures are not the main focus of the game. Against black decks, they will be reanimated. Against red decks, sacrificing a small creature is not that big a deal. Against white decks, read red. (these are all generalizations for the colors) Not going into multicolored. Sacrificing 1 creature is not that huge in edh. It only poses a problem to the voltron strategies (most common are rafiq, uril, and bruna?) and few of them run only their general (thinks of Stonehewer Giant and other ramp creatures and utility).
A 3/3 cat dragon token (fine then, with doubling season, 2 3/3's) are not game changing. I will bring this up again: consider Grave Titan instead. Deathtouch instead of flying, not needed to actually hit the player instead of trample, total of 10 power immediately instead of eight(without doubling season), and almost literally a garauntee of both of wasitora's abilities in one (a dead creature via deathtouch, and tokens via entering the battlefield and/or attacking).
June 9, 2017 12:02 p.m.
NB: I posted this in two sections because I didn't have enough time at first: the first parts I wrote are on the post underneath.
So my definition of that casual-competitive thing would be 'the norm' plus starting to (need to) use hate cards or mana accelerants (not rocks): say, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Cursed Totem, Harsh Mentor...
3) Actually, I do kind of think the other meta makes sense too (comment on the meta), but I'll accept that different definitions can cause confusion. As for competitive, what I was getting at was that you kept referring to better cards and the like, so I tried to imply that it didn't matter which was better in a vacuum because such a 'cool' and unique effect (specifically speaking, not generally) means that it always has uses and appeal you can't just ignore because it's subpar.
4) Obviously Yosei sees less play than Kokusho. I never disagreed with you on that front. What I was disagreeing about was that "yosei is not used often" (which, actually, is a little sad, considering you like the card too). What you may have gotten confused about is when you added "(especially in comparison to kokusho)". Then, when you started outlining why Yosei would not typically see play, I started saying that it might be because you're playing a different format, not trying to criticise your playgroup or anything. You seem to have forgotten the fact that the subject of conversations change, and that the original point of this whole thing was actually me questioning your perspective after you criticised most of the new cards (not because you're not allowed an opinion, but because it proportionately would apply to fewer players, and I wanted to make this clear. I didn't do a good job, did I?).
The basis of all of this confusion appears to just be me being vague- a misunderstanding. I will admit this, and that I am frequently so.
6 [2.2]) I agree.
7 [2.3]) Damn, I accidentally deleted the source when formatting: EDHREC. It's a pretty solid source, gravitating more towards 'the norm' of commander. Its method of collecting data is through submissions, which may create some bias in data, but luckily has a very large sample size (as it becomes more popular, more decks are submitted. It says on the home page over 150,000 decks have been submitted and counting). Yosei (if you search him up as a card, not a commander) crops up in roughly 2000 decks. 2000/150,000 = 1/75. Actually, your proportions between the dragons are pretty similar to mine, give or take a little (Kokusho is notably different, proportionately being more played than your source states in relation to the others because he's so much better in multiplayer).
Sorry about all these long posts btw.
TL;DR: I think I've been unclear/vague/not very specific, as well as probably misinterpreted what you were saying. I don't know how I can really say anything else without going into detail.
June 9, 2017 8:42 a.m.
Alright. I appreciate that you took the initiative to take this off the forums. (Points numbered more clearly.)
1) I automatically thought that you were at least fairly competitive because of your earlier analysis on cards like Wasitora (which isn't actually a bad card, especially in dragon builds- edict effects are surprisingly useful) where you say "This is not a good card, I cannot suggest playing it." You also mentioned Kaalia and Stasis (even if you did generalise, Stasis comes to mind immediately, and stuff like Winter Orb and the like later). There's also the idea of duel and 3-player commander, which would stereotypically perhaps be more competitive with fewer numbers of players than the 'usual' 4 in commander, but that might become more so on the high end too (8-player). Of course, I could be wrong (apologies for the confusion if I am), but there's some quote about following the letter of the law that basically says "don't do it, kids". It's difficult to make any progress in a conversation without at least some assumptions.
2) Well, as I was saying about the different numbers of players- 4 players is seen to be the 'norm'. This point actually links in with a lot of the first, I won't repeat it. I can't of course, offer 100% accurate definitions, but indicative features as best I know them.
cEDH: Often includes expensive staples (Timetwister, Mana Crypt, fetches & ABUR duals), but this line is indistinct on MTGO. The decks are obviously competitive in terms of card inclusions and archetypes (Doomsday, storm, stax, etc.).
The norm: people look up neat synergies, cool combos they want to show off (often impractical), people make substitutes for expensive cards, people play interactive (or weak to interaction) decks.
I'm afraid that's all I have time for now, I'll address the rest a little later on.
June 9, 2017 2:30 a.m.
There is a tl;dr section at the bottom, I did not have enough time to shorten this
Taking this off the forums to save everybody else (and you) the trouble
1:I am accused of being too much of a spike ("That's because stuff like Stasis are 'spikier' cards"). The cause of this accusation was directed at my answer ("but there are better ways of achieving Stasis hint hint", the answer provided an improved card whilst not making any concrete specifications. This was interpreted that I am competitive.
This accusation is easily falsified by pointing out lack of specificity I used and the fact that I mentioned a less-than-competitive reason (in the form of Brine Elemental).
Typical EDH is brought up ("in typical EDH, decks that want to play big creatures without big combos or locks are pretty common"). You have defined typical EDH as, "is not the weird mix of casual-competitive that you play. It's just casual". First: what weird mix of casual-competitive do I play? Please expand accurately on that. How would normal casual-competitive be defined? Please expand accurately on that. Lastly, please define casual, accurately of course.
*If you want any information as to who I play with, what decks we play, and how long games last (turn and/or minutes), ask and you shall receive.
I am accused that I play weird casual-competitive. To say that I play casual-competitive, coming from another person, is one of the most cretinous, inane, and ineffectual statements to make.
Who are you to say that I play weird casual-competitive?
"I'll also point out your explicit mentions of 'meta' and 'competitive'". Congratulations, you read what I write. If you could please be so kind as to assimilate it. The usage of the word "meta" is as follows: a term used to characterize something that is characteristically self-referential. Please do not confuse this with the abbreviation "meta" (most effective tactically available) as that would make no sense within that context. You pointed out that I used the word competitive. I freely admit that I mention (and more) the word competitive, explicitly and clearly.
Do you admit the same.
You appear to view this as a bad thing (troubling, however, your point does not prove anything, leaving another open-ended notion that you bring up).
The original point is that Kokusho, the Evening Star is used more than Yosei, the Morning Star, Ryusei, the Falling Star, Jugan, the Rising Star, and/or Keiga, the Tide Star (damn, i got them all correct!). I gave my reason, when you argued, I gave another reason, you then argued by accusing the way I play, the way others play (attacking my playgroups), and then proceeded to ignore my second reason.
You expect that if you--passively or passive-aggressively or aggressively-- accuse a person (seemingly without any basis), that you can get away with it? With this in mind, let's review some notes you might have forgotten:
you create open-ended and empty points, you create terms that are vague and voided, and it appears that if it is not casual (oh sorry: typical edh) it is immediately discounted.
1:I want to use the way that you write and show you how ridiculous it is, but one would hope that is already clear by what is on this message.
The amount of definite things that you (appear to) believe I said that are not true and create serious flaws: I like yosei as a card, I use yosei in my kaalia deck (Rakdos the Defiler + Yosei, the Morning Star + Twilight Shepherd is fun on turn 5...), and Yosei is not a bad card. Remember, because there is a "better" card does not necessarily mean that the original card is bad. Redundancy is key in edh. Plague Wind is strictly worse than In Garruk's Wake, is Plague Wind a bad card? No(!) both cards are both good. Would I rather play In Garruk's Wake, in most situations, yes. I shall forestall your comment (you talk about meta (the abbreviation)!) and note that both plague and garruk's wake are good and played.
It is important to note your comment, "Yosei is listed in around 2000 decks out of the 150,000-ish decks". You do not list where, how, or what parameters you used in coming up with this. It should be disqualified from the internet. However, since you bring up that numbers, I viewed this search and applied Kokusho, Yosei, Keiga, Ryusei, and Jugan. Each page is 20 decks, i got the following numbers: Kokusho is in 6160 decks, Yosei is in 3480(?!) decks, Keiga is in 2820 decks, Ryusei is in 1880 decks, and Jugan is in 1260 decks (all of these numbers are within 20 minus). I do not see the point in continuing to write this line of thought.
1:In conclusion. It has been a delightful fifteen minutes thinking about this, but for now I shall break.
2:The following has been noted and gone over: you accused me of being a spike, of not playing typical edh, and playing weird casual-competitve edh. You offer no grounds, clarifications, definitions, and minimal basis for them. You have been quoted. You are asked a question that is a cause for some abeyance. I rehash the original point and show your flaws. I stem future accusations. I clarify misconceptions you seem to hold (apologies if you did not hold them, your comments were indicative). I debase a claim you fought for. I reiterate message in conclusion.
June 8, 2017 9:57 p.m.
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Anyone else wondering where all the Grixis-colored cards are? Minus Bolas and PW deck Bolas, I don't think we've seen any :( Grixis is one of my favorite shards/wedges, so I'm now kind of sad.
June 23, 2017 4:39 a.m.
DemonDragonJ From memory, I believe that the demons were associates of Bolas which he introduced to Liliana, from her retcon origin story. He had to use his spell to trigger the rest of Bolas' Hours. As for what he was doing until then, presumably he was just enjoying himself in the warm sun of the necropolis.
June 23, 2017 4:36 a.m.
He has greater cost for a barely lesser reward, but Razaketh is still a "replacement" for Griselbrand in EDH.
That cyclestifle feels like it should be a faerie. I'd play it in commander, just because I like to troll people when they think they can't get countered, but elsewhere I wouldn't.
June 22, 2017 6:12 p.m.
I mean, Leyline is usually best used with some discard or counters to back it up. There's technically equal chance that you draw your out, but you don't just win the game if you do: You won't mull to 5 to find a Destructive Revelry, but you might mull to 4 to find a Leyline.
Actually, though, that's not really important. The thing is, when you make it so that much of a deck's cards don't really do anything but others straight-up win the game, it doesn't promote making all these skilled choices that we like people to make. It's pretty much just mull till you find a discard heavy hand, or Surgical Extraction, or Timely Reinforcements, or Stony Silence, etc. That's not very fun because the game comes down to whether a single card sticks as opposed to whether the right combination of multiple cards do.
As for your typical haters of everything, there's no reasoning with them.
June 22, 2017 6:08 p.m.
I don't think Claim // Fame is busted. A very good card, yeah. Busted? Nah. It can't be busted like Reanimate by very nature, but it does seem like the new Kolaghan's Command. They're not really altogether similar, except in terms of mana cost and playability.
Rhonas' Last Stand, dies to removal, yada yada. I mean, it's a cute card, but it's a 5/4 for GG that has echo of at least GG. If it dies... Ouch. If you run like a fiend, then you can just play a one-drop, but it's frankly much more likely that you skip T3. That's your best case scenario. Is a creature one mana below the curve worth casting Explore on yourself and Time Walk on your opponent? That's assuming you don't play it later in the game, where it's pretty subpar unless you're already winning. I wouldn't say no to a 5/4, but I might prefer something better at that point. So, I'd say it's close to good. Way better than Oketra's, which was frankly terrible.
Goblin Shortcutter got powercreeped. It's still pretty bad though. As is pretty much every eternalize card we've seen so far. It's such a terrible mechanic for competitive. At least the embalm cat was cool.
Uncage the Menagerie is another generic green creature tutor card. You might play it in EDH, but you probably won't be happy about it.
Razaketh is damn cool. Infinitely worse than Griselbrand, but great for commander. Demon tribal should be fun.
June 22, 2017 2:09 p.m.
I'd say why people dislike playing against burn or other "fragile" strategies is that it forces you to play solitaire. There's no real excitement in a turn 0 scoop against Leyline, you know? In a sense, the same applies for combo and sometimes control, though there can still sometimes be some nice interaction with those decks. Against 'typical, acceptable' midrange decks, there's still a lot that can go wrong.
Not saying I agree with this necessarily. I'd think it's unreasonable to force your opponents to supress their groan, if they make one, on the first turn of the match, but they still shouldn't be as toxic as some people can be.
June 22, 2017 1:36 p.m.
Argy The recently spoiled Hour of Glory is a solid answer. There's another card in the Ixalan leaks too.
June 22, 2017 9:47 a.m.
Okay, Scarab God.
5/5 for 5. It isn't Verdurous Gearhulk, but it'll do.
Slow recursion back to hand. It'll work.
Creates big zombies from dead things. Now it's getting interesting.
Drains your opponentS and scrys? Really?
I could see it as a finisher in U/B control. It seems better than Kefnet for anyone who plays him. Also, if zombie decks include blue for some reason, in standard anyway, in there too. Obvious commander is obvious. The rest is pretty meh to me.
June 22, 2017 6:58 a.m.
Hour of Glory will only technically be trash when Ixalan rotates in, hint hint.
Angel of Condemnation is cute, but super slow. Commander?
Reason // Fight/Live is an actual way of dropping a big creature. May see play in manifest decks, which are super cool by the way, but other than that, it doesn't seem brilliant. Too hard to build around in Standard.
June 21, 2017 12:09 p.m.
The legendary sphinx is good, so it's a real pity that it isn't in at least two colors, preferably 3. As is, Sharuum might remain a better choice purely because of the access it gives you to better sphinxes and colors, even if it is a worse commander for the theme itself.
June 21, 2017 10:29 a.m.
But to do that, you need an exact hand and the top 4 cards of your deck. Wasn't Fruity Pebbles or whatever it's called just better than this?
June 21, 2017 10:27 a.m.
My only problem with Arcane Adaption is that the only obvious thing to do with it is to stick it in tribal decks, which doesn't do much. Just turns your Solemn Simulacrum into a merfolk or something. You're probably running few enough creatures outside of your key tribe.
June 21, 2017 10:12 a.m.
Mr. Sandland is well-sized and cheap - enters untapped, becomes a 3/4 for a mere 2 mana (compare to things like Lumbering Falls), and is a desert. Getting lands into the grave would be the problem. Presumably, they're going to make it easier than "cycle my desert" because that's probably the simplest way we have to do it, but works for just 1 activation each.
That said, if deserts are good, this will be in the deck.
Driven to Despair is meh. Too situational.
June 21, 2017 4:08 a.m.
The desert card is alright. You'll play it. You might even be happy about it.
The locust god is too expensive while doing not much of anything. Pretty much limited to commander play only. I mean, you could play it over Torrential Gearhulk, but... Why?
That curse is very good for "unplayable" decks. I imagine that some janky deck will play it somewhere.
Swarm Intelligence is yet another commander card.
Solemnity is a perfect fit for my Atraxa deck... Oh, wait.
It's going in literally every white commander deck I'll ever build. There's always something to do with counters, and frankly, I'm fed up with that stuff. It also laughs at infect if it isn't destroyed. It's versatile, and a cool hate card, but generally speaking, without comboing with it, it's just barely too expensive to play purely as a piece of hate - at least in my opinion.
June 20, 2017 1:39 p.m.
Oh, for the love of all that is Heliod's holy treachery, I hate autocorrect. Since when was Heliod a Hellion?
Actually, Neheb is kind of disappointing. Isn't Rakdos, Lord of Riots mostly just better? I mean... You could combo it with X burn spells in commander, but I'm not sure that's any better than just casting 4 Eldrazi. It's certainly cheaper in real life, though.
June 20, 2017 7:58 a.m.
Looks at type line.
Indeed. This is what glory looks like.
We've come a long way since Helion days.
Yeah, that hydra isn't good. I'd probably prefer to play that weak Flametongue Kavu.
June 20, 2017 7:52 a.m.
That mirror is super interesting. I doubt it'll see any real competitive play, but it's a neat inclusion for some EDH decks.
Think of it this way: The cost every turn is less than your typical manland (plus tapping them to attack). It's also a measly 3 mana in commander. The downsides? Well, we've seen Hour of Revelation already... The card's an artifact, so very Shatterable. It has a niche role that fits only certain commander decks better than other cards.
Brothers Yamazaki confirmed tier 0 commander now.
June 19, 2017 7:34 p.m.
Yet another cat that would be swell to blink with Felidar Guardian :(
June 19, 2017 3:50 p.m.
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