Mass VS targeted Removal

Commander Deck Help forum

Posted on Oct. 22, 2018, 10:58 p.m. by enpc

I recently found space for a Toxic Deluge in my Thrasios/Tymna cEDH deck:

Triton Weaver

Commander / EDH enpc


However for a long time I was surviving with only Cyclonic Rift. I haven't had a situation yet where I have needed deluge and am considering swapping out deluge for more single target removal such as Anguished Unmaking/Abrupt Decay (Note that Beast Within has already been earmarked for replacement with Assassin's Trophy).

For the most part I'm playing against combo decks however there are a few stax decks in my meta, however a lot of the cards that shut me down the most are non-creature.

So what're people's thoughts, is it better to run more single target removal or is Toxic Deluge still worth a spot?

DrukenReaps says... #2

I think this is pretty meta dependent. Board wipes are really useful to me because I'm the only one consistently playing combo. Most the other decks are pretty reliant on creatures so if I can wipe them 3-4 times at the right moments I usually have the game. If you are not needing board wipes then run the single target removal. Though you might pick up the card and have it close by in case your meta changes and you need the wipe. They are mostly just good vs tokens and aggro. You are in white so Merciless Eviction, Hour of Revelation, and others that hit more than just creatures are rather nice to have.

October 23, 2018 2:06 a.m.

Winterblast says... #3

It's definitely a meta thing. In my local meta my opponents have almost no decks with green and white, it's all blue (Teferi, Arcum) or blue with either black and/or red/white splashes (Jhoira, Breya, Zur,...) and the few decks that have more creatures don't really warrant playing mass removals for creatures. On the other hand, I stuff artifact removal en masse in every deck and even Red Elemental Blast becomes a universal removal/counter because of how dominant blue is. I wouldn't use mass removal for something that you have yourself a lot when the opponents don't. If you constantly find yourself having far more creatures than your opponents, playing toxic deluge is probably no trick.

October 23, 2018 5:20 a.m.

Demarge says... #4

(when you forget to mention it's a cedh question)

honestly you're probably better off using the slot to better protect your combo turn or a wheel, like Windfall, or Mnemonic Betrayal Yawgmoth's Will. you also don't have Muddle the Mixture as a counter/ tutor for either piece of the isochron/reversal combo.

October 23, 2018 6:24 a.m.

enpc says... #5

DrukenReaps: It's a hard balance to goet the amount of wraths correct. For the most part I would rather not see them clogging up my hand and if I have to waste a tutor on one, so be it. My concern is that Rift is super expensive to cast and that's where Deluge comes in. I think Merciless Eviction and Hour of Revelation are too expensive to play and I don't really want to sweep my artifacts as tehy form my primary win conditon.

Winterblast: It's not an issue my opponents having creatures, I don't overly care if they have dorks and stuff out. It's more around particular threats. One of the issues I'm currently facing is one of the decks in our playgroup is a Gaea's Blessing Hulk deck which just wins at instant speed. This makes me definitely lean more towards running more instant speed hate.

Demarge: I mentioned cEDH in the first line of the thread. I used to run Muddle the Mixture but found it to be not as good in reality as it was on paper. It didn't counter enough stuff and the transmute on it wasn't as helpful as I would have liked. I've always shied away from Windfall, there's something about potentially graveyarding parts of combo that makes me feel uneasy. With Yawgmoth's Will I'm sure it aleviates it a lot but I haven't played with that either, so I'm always on edge wheeling to graveyard. I know it's dumb but it's the control player in me. Mnemonic Betrayal seems cool but my playgroup doesn't run enough stormesque decks to make it worthwhile.

October 24, 2018 12:16 a.m.

Demarge says... #6

well you could consider trying out Tasigur as a commander, you keep most of your combo's, but tasigur's activated functions as a means to get the same answer multiple times to other combo's since someone else at the table also doesn't want to lose.

October 24, 2018 3:25 a.m.

enpc says... #7

Tasigur is definitely a good commander and I had considered converting the deck before the partner commanders were spoiled (the deck used to be Damia, Sage of Stone) however I don't want to lose access to the removal/addiitonal combos that adding white brings. Not to mention Enlightened Tutor and Noble Hierarch.

October 24, 2018 8:46 p.m.

Please login to comment