Why do people just play top 8 decks and not one they create themselves?
General forum
Posted on April 13, 2011, 2:05 a.m. by Kanklehunt3r
Ok i've been wondering this and can't really see why or what the point of it is, why are sooooo many people playing the top 8 decks rather then creating ones of their own to compete with those top 8's. Yea i get that they help you win easier but not really winning with dignity. I currently am working on a knight deck based on Knight Exemplar and placed 7th in one of my local tournaments. Majority of people there played decks like caw-blade, tezz control, u/w control, and goblins. I didn't do too bad in those match ups to place 7th among top 8 decks. I may be just old fashioned and stubborn to use decks other people came up with but i wish people would get creative again, and not just change four cards or so and say its "different." anyways, someone help me understand this and also if you wouldn't mind, check out my knight deck, Knights (plz help)] and comment on anything you think should be in there or out. Thanks again!
Kanklehunt3r says... #3
Ok i can see where people are coming from and your point on people coming to fnm and losing with top 8 finisher decks but yet not really playing any of the other hundreds of decks in the tourney, i see it now. And yea i know people just make the decks to improve and to gain from them and learn from them, i mean i have considered running the ww quest deck do to it just being purely fun and i of course would alter the build to fit my playing style and liking. I guess overall i see why people do it and i can rant all day and night but it still wont change, i can only strive to be the best i can be as well as maybe some day making a deck that people copy like these top 8's lol, thats a real confidence booster, is a deck you create showing up in top standings lol, thanks for the comment and also fpr looking at my deck.
April 13, 2011 2:38 a.m.
popeyroach says... #4
people now expect to see these top 8 style decks, or at least the cards and combos that dominate it. the pro tour top 8 set the standard, and people build decks to be able to compete with decks of that level. unforunately that usually involves building somthing similar. nobody likes to lose every game every week at fnm, so they bring decks they know will work.
April 13, 2011 7:28 a.m.
my friend plays a cawblade deck, had u/b control before tezz was out, had white aggro, had Quest for the Holy Relic . he has had every top pro deck lately. im going to take pieces of paper and write the names of a caw blade deck down and play him.....
April 13, 2011 7:52 a.m.
I see posts like this and have to laugh. I looked at your knights list and it looks similar to 3 other knight decks I've faced at my local shop. You are no more original than anyone who is playing T8 lists.
The truth is in the magic realm there are many different types of players. In the team aspect these players take vital roles to make the team successful.
There is a great article you can google called, "The Anatomy of a Vintage Team."
In that article it explains that some players are deck builders, some players are deck testers, some are rogue builders, some are "The Face" players or ones who would be the press version for the team, etc.
Not everyone is destined to design great rogue decks. Most pros have test groups where they work on these ideas and perfect them.
Building rogue decks takes time, many players have other obiligations, family, kids, work that keep their time scarce.
I fall into this category and instead of spending countless hours building a rogue deck, it is easier for me to take someone elses idea, tweak it for my local shop and then be successful.
And no, Knights isn't a rogue deck, nor is vamps, nor is elves, nor is merfolk. Everyone at one point in time thought about building these decks.
I understand your point, but a clearly defined metagame is actually better for players. It is more fun to play because you don't lose to random.dec and is more focused on preparation and play skill.
Because of that, it makes building a rogue deck easier as you can prepare your list for the top tier decks at that time.
Also keep in mind, just because someone is netdecking a Top Level pro deck doesn't mean they can pilot it. Caw-blade for example is an extremely tight deck to play and in the hands of most players easily defeated because of the difficulty of playing it.
April 13, 2011 11:02 a.m.
Shadowhand says... #7
As a writer, I know there are no "new" plots/stories. They've all been told. What makes my story original is the little tweaks and twists I add to characters, themes, and events.
The same is true for MTG deckbuilding. There is nothing original about a knight deck (sorry :), but you can make it your own by adding cards you like, or can afford.
The decks I build are based on archetypes, but I look for cheaper, alternative cards that can fill the same roles because I'm on a budget. I have an RDW deck that costs under $40. Check it out: deck:burning-hand-1.
April 13, 2011 6:53 p.m.
Goblins is not unoriginal and "top 8" >.<, Goddamnit! Those people favour less random decks, like the control ones and Caw-Blade.
Though i have to say, I like the fact that once i showed my goblin deck around(on this site and at the local shop), EVERYONE has been pointing out what it needs to be the Kuldotha Red someone won I don't know what with. If I hear one more "Get chimeric mass in it", I shall flip. Though I do start to wonder if I'm only leaving it out because of how annoying that is.
sigh. I bothered looking at the top 8 decks for the first time today. It made me sad that I knew each and every one of them by heart thanks to most people at my shop playing them exactly =/.
April 15, 2011 2:12 p.m.
Goblins is not unoriginal and "top 8" >.<, Goddamnit! Those people favour less random decks, like the control ones and Caw-Blade.
Though i have to say, I like the fact that once i showed my goblin deck around(on this site and at the local shop), EVERYONE has been pointing out what it needs to be the Kuldotha Red someone won I don't know what with. If I hear one more "Get chimeric mass in it", I shall flip. Though I do start to wonder if I'm only leaving it out because of how annoying that is.
sigh. I bothered looking at the top 8 decks for the first time today. It made me sad that I knew each and every one of them by heart thanks to most people at my shop playing them exactly =/.
April 15, 2011 2:12 p.m.
One thing that every player entering Magic to play competitively and not casually must realize is that the meta becomes what it is for a reason.
People are using those decks because there is a shell that is very, very good and easy to work with.
For anything running blue, you have Jace, Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, and Preordain.
Any white has access to the Stoneforge Sword Hawk toolkit.
Any green has access to Vengevine Fauna and Primeval.
Red has a great deal of access, and so does black. Every shell has a definitive "Pro" list of cards that can be used competitively.
What happens is that these cards become engineered around and used in everything. This is because their so efficient at doing what they need to do that there is no possible reason to say "No" to their shell or composition.
It may take some time to find some combos (which is why Stoneforge / Hawk / Equipment took a while) but when they hit, they hit hard. Every meta is defined by excellent cards. Praying for people to stop using what's good is like asking for it not to rain.
You can work as hard as you want on a deck in those colours that doesn't use a said shell or composition--you can go as rogue as you like--but ultimately you'll always be left asking, "How would my deck perform with 'x' card or combination?"
April 17, 2011 7:32 a.m.
I'm old fashioned too.
I like to make my own way/cut my own path, and make it on my own accord and merit (unless its just for funzies). So when my good friend uses Legacy decks like Goblin Charbelcher I get kindof miffed. Not so much at his 1st turn winning (cool, but boring), but at his lack of original thought, and then his pompous arrogance after he wins, even though it wasn't HIS idea that won.
Bottom line: People want to win. And so they use decks that they've seen win. Thats that.
However, I think you can then tell the core of that person, because if they're proud of winning with a deck that they didn't come up with... then you can figure out their personality pretty quickly (and whether you'd want to be friends with them).
(Also, as the old saying goes: Everything has been done before. But I do believe you can splash your own personality into things, and come up with the same ideas as other people without first knowing theirs. And with new cards/sets comes new chances to be the first!)
April 20, 2011 9:36 p.m.
VictimOfAnthrax says... #12
As a Valakut player, I know why people play netdecks:
People want to play good decks and not everyone is Conley Woods.
I want to expand on something Euphony said:
"People are using those decks because there is a shell that is very, very good and easy to work with."
There are only so many cards in a given format pool worth playing. I mean would you play Runeclaw Bear or Fauna Shaman ? What about Lightning Bolt or Shock ?
Competitive decks that run lots of Blue will almost invariably run Jace, the Mind Sculptor /Jace Beleren , Mana Leak /Spell Pierce , and Preordain . Oh look there goes anywhere from 10-15 spots in your deck. Don't forget you're already giving up between 22-26 for your land. So there only leaves 28-19 spots for innovation, assuming it's only blue that you're running. That's much more narrow than it seems, considering the number of cards worth playing is much smaller than the number of cards available to be played.
I try to brew up decks by myself, but I'm not great (I'm not even good). I can build a deck that can function, I can build one that's fun to play. I don't think I can build a deck to destroy the world's meta. I try, but it just is too time consuming for one person to do. So I found an idea I liked (dealing damage via lands) and ran with it. I constructed my first Valakut deck after only playing magic for two or three weeks. It was awful. I was amazed to find out others had built stuff like it. I adapted what I liked and changed what I didn't. I built my own take on the common the theme.
Eventually I swapped in a pair of Primeval Titan s when I got them. Some Explore s here, dropping Growth Spasm s there and... Oh look my deck began to look a lot like the net deck Valakut. I even threw in Inferno Titan to be different. Sure enough it caught up. People play the netdecks because they like the theme. They play the pro-lists because they believe it to better than tech they could come up for their meta. Honestly, it sucks that it happens, but for many, it works.
Sorry to write a freaking column, this is just an argument I've had a lot.
April 21, 2011 4:07 a.m.
JaceTheWalletFlayer says... #13
I am not an awesome player, just someone who has been playing and getting progressively better for the past 6 years.
I picked up my first Magic: The Gathering pack when it was the 9th Edition Introduction pack, with the white/blue and the red/green decks. I played with decks my wife built for me for a little while.
Then, I thought I knew everything. Ravnica came out and I latched on to two of the basic decks, Boros and Dimir. I took them, plus cards from some booster packs, and made some decks. Actually, I just took cards from the booster packs and added them to the decks. I pulled out my awesome Dimir deck at a casual game and everyone asked "What the @%#& is that?" My deck was large enough to drop Battle of Wits and have it actually work. Unfortunately, I knew NOTHING about really building a deck at the time.
I have since gotten quite a bit better, and now routinely make decks that frustrate the hell out of other players. And it gets easier. Do I admit that I get ideas from other decks? Absolutely. Do I copy other people's decks? Only if I have been severely spanked by them, and then only long enough to play it, get used to the combos, and then gut them and make them my own. Do I look at top 8 decks? Yup. Do they give me ideas? Yup. Do I copy them? Not so much. Too damn many Jaces in them for a while there.
Are there "original" ideas when it comes to deck building? Sure there are, right up until the point where you realize that every card is in a set for a reason, and the R&D guys have playtested the hell out of the ideas, and they have already figured out just about every combo you have thought of. (I discovered that when I had poured over the spoilers for New Phyrexia, come up with a killer immortality combo with Melira and Phyrexian Unlife, only to find it printed in the fat pack guide. I was mad!)
Is copying a top 8 deck a sign of a noob? Most likely. Either a noob or a wanna-be power gamer. The trick is not to copy those top 8 decks, but rather to find ways to destroy them, and then you are on your way to the next tournament top 8.
June 26, 2011 1:46 p.m.
Justarsaus says... #14
the only net deck that i have used was a grixis colored tezzy deck... i hated playing with it it was soooo boring the only FNM i took it too i swithed to my mono white knight deck at the last minute
i have a friend that net decks all of his decks he hasn't made a deck of his own since he first started playing he tries to build top 8 decks all the time (he was pissed when the ban was annouced he just got two mystics off me for a caw-blade) he wouldn't talk to me for a week when i beat his k-red deck with a mbc that i had just built
June 27, 2011 12:28 a.m.
brschubert1 says... #15
I feel like this is a bigger problem in formats such as legacy and vintage. With such a large selection of cards available, the top cards to use are very obvious and will overshadow the more limited but entertaining card options. In modern and standard, I feel that creativity is rewarded more because the general value of all cards are at a fairly equal level. This is all speculation, but with the more controlling formats and cards such as Force of Wills available to use and a plethora of can-trips, the more fragile/themed decks simply can't keep up with the finely tuned decks constructed specifically to handle some of the other "top" cards and the general decks that use them. With the many counters (both literal and in general) to deck types and the availability to these counters in colors that would not normally have easy and valuable control as an option, creative decks are left with a large hurtle of standard needs in the deck that may prevent it from being valuable enough even with its limited creative card choices. Winning is very hard without using a large portion of what are considered the most valuable cards, which will in return make the deck look a lot like a top 8 deck even if it is not influenced by any one specific deck.
August 4, 2015 8:16 a.m.
Dalektable says... #16
brschubert1 Holy necrothread, batman! Check the timestamps before posting, this is from four years ago man.
August 4, 2015 7:46 p.m.
Two simple answers:
People like to play decks that have more chance of winning.
People are scaredy cat wussies who are afraid to take chances and lack the skills to build a competitive rogue deck.
August 5, 2015 1:40 a.m.
One more thought.
I have been working in Private on a Red Burn deck called Scorch, but haven't gotten around to buying the cards to play it.
Then Red Burn won the Origins Pro Tour.
I still want to put my deck together as it will smash all the Elf decks in my local meta, but now it looks exactly like a Net Deck.
Luckily I have also put together Monothopters, so no one can can accuse me of exclusively being the type 2 player I described above.
August 5, 2015 1:51 a.m.
brschubert1 says... #19
Dalektable Ya I have no idea how I even came across this. I'm fairly certain I was belligerent when responding cause I don't remember putting so much effort into the response. Oh well, glad I got to express my anger at Force of Will anyways. F**k you 70% of Legacy decks! :P
theemptyquiver says... #2
The internet makes playing Magic easier than it used to be.
Magic used to be much more insular, but now as it proliferates the masses and more people have access to the information and see the "top 8" from a pro tournament they gravitate towards mimicking those decks.
What people tend to forget is that those results are indicative of the tournament itself, and not how the deck does generally. No deck is unable to lose. Some decks are just more finely tuned. People copy those decks hoping to go to their on FNM games and dominate, and then they realize that they failed to take into consideration the local meta may not play all the decks that were on the last Pro circuit tournament, and they get smacked down. Or the deck that they built does really well and they get a false sense of security. Meh either way, right?
Unfortunately I think you are right in your assessment of 'old fashioned' as players that have been around the game along time are just having to adapt to the more mass appeal of the game which does not mean it dumbs down, but simply becomes more saturated with people copying. And by copying keep in mind that most people are copying because they want to be good at the game, and learn how to play well.It's like a kid watching Albert Pujols (not this year) playing baseball and copying his swing to learn how to bat. They do it because they were impressed with the original product and they want to use it for their own gain. Which is just the way having access via the internet works.
I have become quite blinded to it for the most part. I can't help but to see almost every type of deck idea out there, and process it and garner bits and pieces I like. When I do build decks, I have pretty much quit hoping that their is anything original about them, and more I spend time worrying if I actually enjoy the cards in them and that I will have fun playing them, while at the same time being a consistent and competitive deck to play. So I have standards, and I will move to a lowest common denominator if it means more success for my deck as long as it meets the above criteria. haha.
I could rant all night.
My only pet peeve is that when people get miffed when people "copy" some "pro" person deck. As if anyone could stop it, and as if it should matter.I don't buy a new box of cards and go home and start building a deck and get excited about it and see online that pro magic player :"Timmy Johnspike" had already competed and placed in a top 8 position with a deck similar. I don't throw the deck out, and I certainly don't feel like I owe that dude anything.
Anyhow. I will check out your deck. That sounds more fun. I hope it has White Knight s.
April 13, 2011 2:20 a.m.