How Much Ramp Should Be in an EDH Deck?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 13, 2013, 10:10 p.m. by Nobilior
I know it may be a broad question, but in a non-green EDH, how much ramp/land should your deck be? From what I've heard, you should have...
36-40 lands
and...
5-10 Ramp cards.
But what should/would be a good ration between those? Is 37 land and 6 ramp a good, general ratio to adhere to?
I've heard it said that you start with a base amount of 40 lands, then remove 1 land for each two ramp sources you use. So 37-6 actually kinda works out. I tend to run a lot more ramp, but that's more just me being redundant.
November 13, 2013 10:25 p.m.
The list is Greeks Bearing Gifts (Commander is Zedruu the Greathearted ). I haven't finished it yet but I have been looking around and it seems that most people think that there should be about 37 land + 10 ramp to support Zedruu's ability and have mana open for control. It just seemw like ten is a little much.
November 13, 2013 10:37 p.m.
I run 42 lands in a list with 14 ways to drop extra lands, : Azusa, Oracle, Walking Atlas, Sakura-Tribe Scout, Explore, Urban Evolution, Burnished Hart, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Wood Elves, Druidic Satchel, Darksteel Ingot, and Doubling Cube. It's a Battlecruiser Damia list that loves land drops.
I have a 37 land Xaihou Dun combo/control list that only has Solemn, Burnished Hart, Lilliana of the Dark Realms and Journeyer's Kite. But it seems to work just as well as having a bunch of rocks (and less threats.)
My Lady Evangela list just has Druidic Satchel and Walking Atlas, 41 lands. (The list is outdated on my profile, ingot, lantern and talisman are gone.) But getting a land drop every turn reliably is so goooood. Especially when its a control deck that uses utility lands in a fine example of late-game control.
Lastly, I have Krenko - 38 lands and a Solemn, but it rocks a Gauntlet of Power, Caged Sun, Phyrexian + Ashnod's Altar, Skirk Prospector and Thermopod. And seems to do quite well for itself.
Its not about any sort of take 1 out for 2 put it, it's what feels right as you're playing the deck. Heck, I hate even playing with Mana Rocks these days. Reduces deck complexity, reduces threats/answers you can run and don't provide any sort of skill-intensive challenge to the game.
November 13, 2013 10:39 p.m.
@ erabel
Would you say that redundancy of ramp be worth it over having spells though?
@ Joz
I think the Xaihou Dun list is most similar to what I was thinking. My deck is Zedruu the Greathearted and I was thinking of these as ramp
(maybe Basalt Monolith or something)
November 13, 2013 10:49 p.m.
@ erabel
Would you also say 37/8 or 38/6 would be better? I'm just trying to figure out how to maximize my spell potential without sacrificing constancy and speed.
November 13, 2013 10:52 p.m.
RegisteredDecksOffender says... #8
Don't overlook arguably some of the best Mana rocks.
Darksteel Ingot , Coalition Relic , Sol Ring and Grim Monolith .
November 13, 2013 10:54 p.m.
Re: NobiliorThe best ramp, are ones that get you land. If you're running Land Tax, you should want to run Walking Atlas as well. It is a fantastic card that most people won't perceive as a threat. And since you're running Land Tax for basics - Burnished Hart is a must, IMO. (And it can be re-gotten with Sun Titan.) You can also use Kor Cartographer and Knight of the White Orchid to get plains. Pilgrim's Eye to search a land to hand and get a 1/1 flying chump. Solemn Simulacrum gets a land to play and gives you a card when it dies. Dreamscape Artist can be used to some effect as well. And the following three: Wayfarer's Bauble, Expedition Map and Armillary Sphere are all good in most decks that can search up basics (with Expedition Map being even better for getting nonbasics). Lastly, Journeyer's Kite is a powerful, repeatable effect. And the best thing about most of these... Sun Titan'able.
November 13, 2013 11 p.m.
To be honest, the best way to see how much ramp/lands you need is to playtest extensively. Joz makes a good point, that there's ramp to consider that isn't artifact ramp.
And, I dunno, I lean very heavily on the "casual" side of Magic the Gathering, so what would be optimal is not my area of expertise at all. Signets and Lantern have both served me well; so has Dreamscape Artist ; Sol Ring is beautiful, so if you can pick up a copy, do the thing; Sad Robot (Solemn Simulacrum ) has been great.
And I feel the ratio depends. I'd run more lands and fewer ramp effects if the ramp is land-based (Land Tax , Dreamscape Artist , Liliana of the Dark Realms ) and fewer lands and more ramp if the ramp is artifact-based (Sol Ring , assorted signets, Chromatic Lantern ).
November 13, 2013 11:10 p.m.
I think I'm going to settle with 37 land and 7 ramp.
I like Journeyer's Kite and all the other suggestions. The only one I've been opposed to is Grim Monolith simply because its got a big price tag with it and I'm trying to lock down a general list right now. It also seems that different ramp spell should have other cards played with them (Journeyer's Kite and Walking Atlas or Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth )
What do you all think I should use as a general 7 to start out with MagicMike69, erabel, and Joz? It seems the general consensus is that I just need to make the list and playtest it.
I really appreciate all of your inputs btw. Thanks fellas!
November 13, 2013 11:15 p.m.
Sol Ring is pretty great, and it was recently reprinted in all the new Commander precons, so if you've got one, do the thing.
I like Chromatic Lantern in any 3-color+ deck. Some might argue that it's better to run fetches and get dual lands, but fetches and dual lands are expensive as balls, and if you're having issues with Grim Monolith over ITS price tag, you're not gonna want to shell out for fetches.
Walking Atlas flies under the radar, and is, you know, good.
I like Signets, but I feel like this might also be a personal bias. They're budget-friendly, which I appreciate.
Land Tax OP. If you're okay with only using it one turn a game, go right ahead. If your play group knows anything about that card, it WILL get hated off the table.
November 13, 2013 11:21 p.m.
Anything that hard-ramps (gets lands into play) is the best thing to start off with, if you find that is to slow, then you run some mana rocks behind that, signets, sol ring, but worn powerstone should top that list. A Gilded Lotus isn't going to do much for you. Neither is a Thran Dynamo. Powerstone isn''t too good on a 4 mana general any way.)
Do you run Crackdown? Its a great card to donate.
November 13, 2013 11:27 p.m.
@ erabel what would you recommend instead of Land Tax then? Maybe Journeyer's Kite ? Also, I'm fine with most cards so long as they're under 10 or something close.
The ramp so far:
Is Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth ) worth consideration?
@ Joz what are your favorite land rampers in American colors?
November 13, 2013 11:36 p.m.
Solemn, Kor Cartographer, Knight of the White Orchid, Druidic Satchel, Walking Atlas, Wayfarer's Bauble. Good, solid, hard ramp. With 4 of the 6 being Sun Titan targets. Land Tax + Atlas is also a very good combination I have in a monowhite enchantment edh. Stuff like Armillary Sphere is still powerful, as is Journeyer's Kite, but getting the lands into play always trumps getting them just to your hand. Then again.. Kite + Atlas is just another Land Tax+ Atlas for a bit of mana each turn.
November 13, 2013 11:39 p.m.
The advice I've heard for "engine cards" (like Rings of Brighthearth , Illusionist's Bracers , and Deadeye Navigator ) is not to include them unless A. you're running a butt ton of tutors, or B. they work with at least 10 cards in your deck (i.e., if you draw them by turn 4, you've got about a 10% chance to have drawn another card that synergizes with it). If you'll only run Rings of Brighthearth for Basalt Monolith ... don't run either.
November 13, 2013 11:41 p.m.
Gentlemen, I appreciate all of your help and now must ponder all I have learned. Since I can't give either of you handshakes, tell me one of yours decks and I will bestow it with a +1.
November 13, 2013 11:47 p.m.
November 13, 2013 11:49 p.m.
Well, as long as you're offering, http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lady-evangela-mistress-of-fog/
RegisteredDecksOffender says... #2
If you've got a deck you're wondering about, feel free to link it and I'll take a look at it. :)
As a general rule of thumb 36-40 lands is correct as you mentioned. It seems like you'd be okay with 37 land and 6 ramp though.
What is the overall converted mana cost of your deck?
November 13, 2013 10:17 p.m.