Counter spells for commander
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on Oct. 1, 2015, 10:46 p.m. by -Orvos-
Just wondering if Spell Shrivel, Horribly Awry, Thassa's Rebuff, and Scour from Existence would be good for removal or counters in commander.
What do you think?
Epochalyptik says... #3
For the most part, no.
The guaranteed counter and exile is worth the extra color saturation.
Essence Scatter > Horribly Awry
The exile bonus isn't strictly worth the targeting limitation considering how many relevant creatures in the format have higher CMCs. This one is closer than Dissipate vs Spell Shrivel, though, and you could choose Horribly Awry as a meta call.
Thassa's Rebuff is generally worse than many other 
counterspells, although it does to some extent depend on the deck.
Scour from Existence is playable maybe as removal in green and red, which don't have great removal options on their own. It might also be playable in mono black ramp as an answer to enchantments and artifacts. Blue doesn't really want to pay 
instead of countering or bouncing. White just has good all around removal and doesn't need to pay such an exorbitant amount to get it.
October 1, 2015 11:25 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #4
Scour from Existence is also a colorless out for single-color decks against Iona.
October 1, 2015 11:33 p.m.
RegisteredDecksOffender says... #5
Scour from Existence as a way for certain colors to deal with what they have a hard time removing. I.E. Black with Enchantments.
October 2, 2015 3:13 a.m.
Digression, but Counterflux is the EDH counterspell gold-standard. It's impossible to counter, and while the overload is rarely useful, whenever you use it, I guarantee it will save your bacon. The downside? 3 colored mana symbols in very particular colors. It either fits in your deck or not at all.
Spell Shrivel is potentially useful in the early game, but by midgame it's basically a way of forcing your opponent to hold his or her second action for a turn. If your EDH deck is very tempo-oriented, go ahead and include it. If not, find a harder counter.
Horribly Awry depends a lot on your meta. Some metas 4 CMC is the biggest thing out there, others your opponents won't be casting spells smaller than 2 or 3. If the majority of cards are big, high CMC beatsticks, avoid this.
Thassa's Rebuff scales nicely with your game...sort of. If you're running control, chances are your devotion will actually be less than everyone else's because the cards you could have spent on creatures you spent on counters and card-draw. It depends on the deck.
Scour from Existence is perfectly serviceable. The CMC is very high, but it's colorless and an instant, so deals with most protections. It's worth noting, however, that this isn't a counter; it's removal. Your opponent's card will hit the battlefield and, if it's a planeswalker, they will get a chance to put an ability on an empty stack before you can remove it.
October 2, 2015 2:08 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #7
a bit off of the original post but still on EDH counters, I've got a casual deck running Dissolve, and I'm considering replacing it with Scatter to the Winds. Any thoughts on whether scry or potential late game value is better?
October 2, 2015 2:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
@Egann: Counterflux is hardly the gold standard in any format that involves Counterspell, Mana Drain, and Force of Will. Counterflux is too expensive, too saturated, and too seldom necessary.
@asasinater13: Scatter to the Winds does not qualify as late-game value. Countering something for 6 and getting a 3/3 is very inefficient and slow. Why not just play any of the innumerable 2-drop counterspells or keep the scry if you want it?
October 2, 2015 3:36 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #9
@ Epochalyptik For Counterflux, it is at least better than some of the other three mana counterspells if you are in the colors, and it certainly is better than Last Word that some people run. I do agree that Counterspell is typically better, but in a meta that is almost exclusively blue or with a Storm player, it can be useful.
@asasinater13 Dissolve is much better. That 3/3 will likely not impact the board, and a 6 mana counter is too expensive. Also Dissolve allows you to find a better card. Finding a finisher is better than hoping for one of your lands to get there.
October 2, 2015 3:42 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #10
fair points about Scatter to the Winds. I pulled a promo and was curious if I could justify running it.
two mana counterspells would be great, I run all the ones I own. I'm not dedicated to making my deck competitive, so I'm fine without going out of my way for more and the scry is fine.
October 2, 2015 3:59 p.m.
@ Epochalyptik: I outright forgot Counterspell, but while Force of Will and Mana Drain are Legacy staples, and are very strong cards, they do have drawbacks. Force of Will is either an expensive counter or a card discard, and with card advantage being more important in EDH than any other format, that's not as great a trade-off as you might think. It's a good doppelganger for Pact of Negation with the asterisk that it triggers lifeloss combos.
Mana Drain, however, while usually badass, can turn into early-game suicide. The aggressive tempo-swing it brings can aggro the entire table at you. Again, it's a great card, but it comes with a Surgeon General warning.
October 3, 2015 2:22 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
As someone who exclusively plays combo and control at the tournament level, and as someone who uses both Force of Will and Mana Drain regularly to win games, I'll tell you that your assessment is myopic.
Force of Will does indeed have a drawback: you spend two cards to counter one card. However, you don't need to spend any mana in the process, which means that you are free to continue executing your game plan by spending your mana and still have some way to protect those moves. Therefore, it's not an absolute loss of tempo. Losing an additional card is worth not losing the game. That's actually a fantastic trade-off. And further, the life loss is irrelevant in almost all cases. And even if your opponent is playing a life loss combo, you could just counter the combo piece and not worry about it. Life loss is far kinder a downside than a "
or lose" condition.
Saying that Mana Drain is dangerous because it's too good seems like a poor argument against it. If you care about winning the game, it's great. The tempo advantage that it provides is generally sufficient to establish a firm hold on the game, and it's up to you to play around the political impact of that acceleration. It's not the card's fault.
You are free to assess the quality of certain cards in relation to an objective that isn't winning the game as fast and efficiently as possible, but the assessment you produce will not be broadly applicable and is not a representation of what is actually "good" in the format.
October 3, 2015 2:55 p.m.
No none of those are relevant. Especially in a format where simple Counterspell is legal, cheap, and worlds better.
Also see Dissolve, Dissipate, Psychic Strike, and a whole list of other counterspells that do more for less. Usually your only demand from a counterspell here is that it counters everytime. No well maybe if they have extra mana. No, screw that. counter that shit. Hell even figgin Cancel would be better than all of the ones that you mention. I know the immediate hope is that everything in a new set is viable in the eternal format, but its really not the case.
October 3, 2015 3:05 p.m.
Scour from Existence is just too expensive. You could just use Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light, Silence the Believers, Utter End to name a few. 7 mana is excessive.
October 3, 2015 3:07 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #15
Scour from Existence is insurance for decks without good removal against problematic spells. I also think 5-color with aggressive mana bases can run it against blood moon. It also is a mono-color deck out to iona. also note that none of the other spells you listed fit in every deck that exists, nor do they hit every type of permanent.
on the counters, only needing a single blue mana is pretty relevant, and in decks that want a lot of counterspells in competitive groups, I could see Horribly Awry being pretty cool. it helps against early threats, stops Eternal Witness, people playing low-CMC commanders like marath, omnath, etc.
oxyzen says... #2
Scour from Existence might go in my Karn, Silver Golem deck. It is ok in colours that suck at dealing with permanents. It is a Spine of Ish Sah that cannot be abused.
The counterspells are all pretty awful, you might see them in extremely counter heavy 1v1 decks like Talrand, Sky Summoner but in EDH counterspells that make your oppenent pay X are easily outclassed, and Dissipate put things into exile if that is what you are looking for.
October 1, 2015 10:57 p.m.