Does the game remember with which permanent an exiled card was exiled after that permanent leaves the battlefield?
Asked by Yesterday 5 years ago
I've been playing for a few years and this has not once come up practically, but I'm pretty curious. Here's a scenario where it'd matter —
Imagine your Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is sitting at 2 and has a Storm Crow exiled with/under it. Naturally, Storm Crow is the single best card in the game, so obviously you want to use Ashiok's -X to put to Storm Crow into play. Once you pay the -2 cost of the ability, Ashiok goes to the graveyard before the ability resolves. As the ability goes to resolve, does the game remember which cards were exiled with Ashiok as the 'last known information(?)' of the permanent; or would it functionally do nothing as Ashiok has left the battlefield and there are now no cards exiled under it?
Oh dear. There may be more subtle wording in the abilities of Magic than I was aware of. I was under the impression that cards that specified you must target a card (such as Snapcaster Mage) were rendered useless if the targeted card were to change zones in some way in response to the ability going to resolve, whereas cards like Mission Briefing were strictly(?) better because they didn't have to choose a card until after the ability resolved. I had thought that Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver landed in the second category, but are they actually somewhere in the middle of these? Would a process effect (such as Void Attendant) used in response interfere with this ability?
If so, I might make a separate question for clarification on this. But for the intended question for this thread, imagine that Ashiok's -X read "Choose a creature card exiled with this permanent with converted mana cost X. Put it onto the battlefield under your control".
Would that hypothetical ability still work (not just resolve, but work in the obviously intended way) if Ashiok were to leave the battlefield before that ability resolved?
October 22, 2018 8:55 a.m.
I mentioned choice for Ashiok's -X ability based on its gatherer ruling:
"Ashiok’s second ability doesn’t target any creature card. You choose which creature card to return when that ability resolves, but you must choose one with converted mana cost equal to the value you chose for X when activating the ability. "
So, you basically dial in X as you activated the ability. As it resolves, if Ashiok had exiled Storm Crow and Snapcaster Mage, you can choose which one to play.
In this way, Ashiok is indeed similar to Mission Briefing, where you only choose the card you will be casting as part of resolution.
For example, if ashiok activates its second ability with X equal to 2 and promptly goes to graveyard for having 0 loyalty; with an exiled Storm Crow and aSnapcaster Mage exiled; and the opponent casts Pull from Eternity on the far better target Storm Crow, you will still be able to resolve the ability, but will be able to bring out only a mere Snapcaster Mage.
October 22, 2018 9:10 a.m.
Okay, thanks very much.
This is probably a MtG wording semantics question, but in what way is "last known information" not at play here? Is that something specifically reserved for creatures, or..?
October 22, 2018 9:44 a.m.
Last known information comes into play when a spell or ability needs information about a specific card when it resolves.
For example, let's look at Flayer of the Hatebound. It comes into play from the graveyard, and would normally deal 4 damage to a creature. Let's look at three situations:
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It comes into play normally. At the time of resolution of the ability, Flayer has 4 power, so will deal 4 damage to any target. Pretty straightforward.
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You hit Flayer with Giant Growth as its ability is on the stack. At the time of resolution, it has 7 power, so will deal 7 damage, as the ability checks power at the time of resolution.
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Your Flayer is hit by an exile spell before its ability resolves. The ability will still resolve, but, in the absence of Flayer on the field, it cannot check the power of the permanent. So, the game looks back in time to the last known information about Flayer. That is when last known information applies--when, as a spell or ability is resolving, it needs to check a permanent for additional information.
In your question, the check is done on activation of the ability--not on resolution.
Last known information does not need to only apply to creatures--just a large portion of cards involve creatures, so that's the most common example. I can't think of a card that implicates the rule for a non-creature permanent off the top of my head, but I don't see any reason why one couldn't exist.
October 22, 2018 10:05 a.m.
"Last known information" is usually used in the following situations:
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An effect needs info about an object that has left its expected zone (Severed Strands needs LKI to know what the toughness of the creature you sacrified is)
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An effect would make an object deal damage after it left its expected zone (if Boros Reckoner is dealt lethal damage, it dies before its triggered ability resolves, so it needs LKI to know how much damage it took; similarly if it has lifelink, it also needs LKI to know how much life its controller should gain)
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An effect needs info about a player that has left the game (Biomantic Mastery uses the LKI of a player that has left the game to determine how many cards to draw, as long as the other target player is still a legal target)
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A spell or ability needs info about one of its illegal targets (Dead Ringers targets two nonblack creatures, but one is then made black through another spell or ability and becomes an illegal target; Dead Ringers uses LKI to compare the two creatures' colors for the still-legal target)
Source: http://mtgtutorials.tumblr.com/post/47658480762/mtg-tutorials-28-last-known-information
So if Ashiok's second ability was, for some reason, trying to check Ashiok's information, then LKI would be involved. The cards exiled with that instance of Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are still where they're supposed to be (exiled with that instance of Ashiok), so the ability doesn't need to check LKI to resolve.
October 22, 2018 10:21 a.m.
Celestial Convergence is a fringe example of LKI on a non-creature permanent. If this is removed from play in response to its upkeep ability triggering, the "Last Known Information" rule will apply, and nothing will happen because the card will have had at least one counter on it.
October 22, 2018 10:26 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #8
Ashiok's ability does use the principle of Last-Known-Information to work. When a card uses its own name in its rules text (and doesn't say something like "a card named NN") it means "this object, right here". The "Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver" named in the text of the middle ability refers to the object on the battlefield whose ability was activated. If that object is no longer on the battlefield as the ability resolves (i.e. no longer in the expected zone), the game will use LKI to determine which cards in exile were associated with it.
October 25, 2018 11:29 a.m.
Also, please remember to mark an answer as accepted so this can be removed from the unanswered queue.
October 29, 2018 2:20 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
Yesterday: Answers to this question have been up for a while. I chose one to mark as the "Accepted Answer" so that the thread can move out of the Unanswered queue. Please remember to take care of this yourself in the future.
I try to avoid marking my own response when I have to do this, but in this case it's the one I think sums up the answer in the best way. If you prefer a different response then feel free to re-select.
October 30, 2018 12:32 p.m.
Thanks, apologies for the delay, but I was without Internet access for a while.
Boza says... #1
The ability will resolve without a hitch, but last known information is not at play here.
You make the choice of creature (the -x ability of Ashiok does not target) as part of casting the ability and paying the costs. That is when it matters that it is a card exiled with Ashiok. Once the ability is activated, it does not matter what happens to Ashiok.
Lets assume the same situation, but ashiok has 3 loyalty. The ability is activated and ashiok goes to 1. However, before it resolves, the opponent casts Shock on ashiok. Will the ability resolve as intended? Yes, for the same reasons as above.
This is the general rule for all abilities - it does not matter what happens to the source after activation or trigger. Unless some information from the source is needed, in which case Last known information is involved. An example of that will be countering a Bloodbraid Elf on the stack - it will not stop its cascade from resolving.
October 22, 2018 8:11 a.m.