[Community Discussion]: What's the most important part of deckbuilding?
General forum
Posted on Feb. 15, 2015, 6:45 p.m. by Epochalyptik
This Community Discussion idea was proposed by miracleHat.
What do you think is the most important part of the deckbuilding process? Is it the initial idea that gets your started on your list? Is it research on other decks and cards? What about the first draft and the first round of playtesting?
Whatever it is, tell us what you get out of that part of the process and why it means so much to your decks!
It is the initial idea, so that you know where you want to take the deck.
February 15, 2015 6:48 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #5
Turning an idea into a reality, you can build decks on here until you are blue in the face the only meaningful step is to acquire the cards and sleeve them up. Obviously you have to come up with the idea and do your research first and that's important but until you get the cards its all just make believe.
Most people will have come up with a few decklists both had an idea and done the research but then never went ahead and built it.
And playtests aren't real, to know if it works you have to do some real battlin'
February 15, 2015 6:52 p.m.
HolyFalcon says... #6
Also plz no hate, 1st. -proceeds to get banned from T/O-
February 15, 2015 6:53 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
The support cards. Your combo/ main synergy is the key to the deck, but the cards that synergize well are really what help you win games.
February 15, 2015 6:53 p.m.
Blind_Guardian says... #8
No doubt the intital idea: which can change rapidly through playtesting and research still being the core of the deck. That's why I dislike netdecking. It's like using an empty shell, no background story or anything individual.
February 15, 2015 6:55 p.m.
Definitely the initial idea.I feel like everyones deck tells a story about how they feel about the cards and characters portrayed in those cards, mainly the ones for their win condition. Without that, you've got nothing.
February 15, 2015 6:59 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #10
The idea. The way I built a deck is to decide the main idea and where I want to have the deck go, and then decide on the key cards that drive that theme. Afterwards, we can add utility cards that back up that main theme. Without the original idea, we can't actual build a deck and everything else can't happen.
February 15, 2015 6:59 p.m.
What kind of deck you'd like to build. Otherwise, you've got nowhere to start!
February 15, 2015 7:03 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #12
Another point besides metagaming is how many islands you would like to run, Whether blue is a splash, the main colour or the whole deck.
February 15, 2015 7:10 p.m.
"Originality" - in quotes.
It's fine if I come up with an idea and it lines up with what a lot of other people are doing. I'm even okay with getting the basic idea for a deck from somewhere else. But it is very important to me to look at the card pool, come to my own conclusions about what cards I want, and flesh out the list on my own so I can be proud of my creation.
After I've done all that and played it a few times I might ask for feedback or look at other decklists for ideas, but not before.
February 15, 2015 7:14 p.m.
shepherdofire says... #14
The epiphany. The moment you think of the concept the deck will be built around. The pure, unaltered, idea that makes you excited to build it. Staying true to that idea is what I do while building my deck. Not letting any other ideas interfere with the card choices. I put the cards that I am focusing on in front of me on my floor. Then I put all the cards that are relevant in a pile sorted out By name. The. I read through the cards and sort them into 3 piles: primary, secondary, and sideboard. If there are not enough primary cards to choose from put in some secondary cards. Then sort out the best picks for side board and put the cards together but sorted by color. Then I count the solid colored mana symbols and tally the totals for a land base. Just put in your best estimate. You can fool around with fixing the land ratio after play testing in real life. Then add lands. play test, bring it to fnm, play against all sorts of decks, every one if possible. Then make note of your decks strengths and weaknesses. adapt your deck or side board based on your meta. Then repeat the last 3 until it feels right.
February 15, 2015 7:16 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #15
shepherdofire and others said it best. The moment in which you discover the idea for a deck you want to build Could be a homebrew, or it could be a common tier 1 archetype...simply having the idea that sets you on the path to something that may prove something to someone. Then, having the balls to not let anyone stand in the way of it and yourself. Aside from those, and actually a pillar of a deck, consistency.
February 15, 2015 7:32 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #16
deciding which colors to use for your deck, sometimes it comes up when you have an idea based on specific cards, but often which colors isn't completely obvious, especially with dding support colors at all. decides which cards are options for you
February 15, 2015 7:34 p.m.
jandrobard says... #17
The brainstorming process. Talking to friends (when such individuals may be found), metagaming, looking at successful lists on Top8, fervently searching through Gatherer, and discussions on T/O all influence the deck vitally. Plus it's fun, too!
February 15, 2015 7:48 p.m.
For me, I have to find the idea I'm going to build around. Either a specific card, or combo, or mechanics interaction, or gimmick. Then, depending on what I'm going for, I'll do research on gatherer and make a big list in the deck builder tool here, and use that to winnow down to the best cards for the deck. I'll usually leave my last few cuts in the maybe board for a while.
No matter what it is, I rarely consult other decklists until I'm finished with the deck and am already used to how it plays. I want my decks to be as original as possible and play cards other players may not have seen before.
February 15, 2015 8:05 p.m.
Definitely testing and deciding where it is flexible depending on certain metas. Is the side board flexible? Main board? Creatures? Instants? And whay cards could work as inserts when u need them
February 15, 2015 8:10 p.m.
SuperJeaux30 says... #20
While I completely agree that the brainstorming process or initial idea is incredibly important, I personally think land/mana ratio is the most important part of deck building. It doesn't matter how grand/competitive/fun your idea is unless you know how/if you can properly support the deck's mana requirements.
February 15, 2015 8:13 p.m.
TheGodofNight says... #21
Crack some packs, fling the cards at a bowl. Whatever cards land in the bowl make the deck, whatever hits the floor is the second deck. Deckbuilding Level: 100
February 15, 2015 8:54 p.m.
Not only is the synergy key but the effectiveness of your deck against others. I've built decks that I loved because the initial idea was so enthralling to me but only later did I realize that the deck was not effective against others enough for me to enjoy the theme so I had to synergize more by making the hard choices and removing the cards I initially fell in love with for ones that were better or more effective with the strategy.
Finding the best curve and land ratio is crucial as well.
February 15, 2015 9:18 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #23
Clear vision, and an understanding of the format you are building in.
February 15, 2015 9:38 p.m.
The Engine.
What powers the deck forwards and does it have a cantrip feature to keep your pressure going.
February 15, 2015 9:57 p.m.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #25
The first playtest. You will quickly learn if your deck is garbage if it doesn't do what you want by the turn you want it done by. For example, in a Limited aggro deck you should have at least 4 creatures by turn 3 given a high amount of one-drops.
February 15, 2015 11:52 p.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #26
It's the realization the deck is never final. Constantly brooding over why this beats you or why the mana dosn't seem to be working like you expected. Can I cut a land and play at 38% land? All in all there isn't a single focus when serious deck building is afoot. I sometimes dream up idea's and grab my notepad aside the bed and write stuff down at 4am. Deck building is a constant moving clock that never stops, its 24 hrs 7 days a week...when your spark is lit! Cheers, Aaron
February 15, 2015 11:54 p.m.
Interaction with other decks > Interaction in your own deck
I'd say metagaming, whether it's local, regional or national... I play to have fun and I don't only play to win, but it's impossible to have fun without winning! So building a deck that will have some good wins against your meta is the way to go in my opinion. To a certain extent, all archetypes can be played effectively against other archetypes, so whether you play control, midrange or aggro you always have the possibility of adapting them to other decks!
February 15, 2015 11:58 p.m.
The refinement. We all have fantastic "original" ideas and epiphany moments when building decks, and those are all well and good, but you have to make sure your deck accomplishes what you set out to do. This only comes about after sleeving up and playtesting.
I'm not most proud of my original ideas or comedic combos, I'm always the most proud of my deck or decks that I've played for years that have been tweaked and modified to be the absolute most efficient machine they can be.
February 16, 2015 12:22 a.m.
Making your shell + lands fit into 45 cards instead of 60. If you can't do that, you might have the best 60 cards in the metagame and a sideboard full of 15 shiny backups, but it won't mean anything because you still won't know how to sideboard.
After that it's competent land design. This is really complex, especially in Standard right now, because you have to balance mana fixing (with lots of dual lands) against speed (for ETB tapped cards) or life (painlands).
February 16, 2015 12:34 a.m.
buildingadeck says... #30
I think it depends on your purpose for building. For some, building is about winning or placing in the top 4 at your LGS at FNM consistently, or even to qualify and play at Pro Tour or Grand Prix events. In that case, the most important part would definitely be metagaming, figuring out a weakness in the other decks to exploit and having the proper sideboard for match ups are key components of your build.
On the other hand, other people want to have a deck that can hang at FNM without being utterly destroyed (or are simply looking for something cool to bust out at the kitchen table) but are looking more to have fun. In that case, I would say that the focus becomes the ability to recognize how you like to play, what your strengths are as a player and what general style fits you because that will bring you the most joy. That's at least my insight, and I tend to fall into the second category.
February 16, 2015 1:10 a.m.
Odorous_Walker says... #31
Whenever I set out to make a deck I have a train of mind. It is the same way on how I got people into magic. The first thing I do is think about the colors and align them with how I play (when I introduced my sister I explained to her what each of the colors told her about herself, there was a reference back in the day explaining this). Then I look for decks that are competitive that play to my strengths, am I a control player that likes to stall the game, am I going to hold back to the last moment wipe the board and hit you in the face for a bunch, or am I going to come out swinging from the gate and not stop til you stop? Then I look to how I can improve on these decks and then think of how I can side board for my LGS meta.
For example, I like G/R Aggro typically I know the bread and butter strat for that without having to know what cards are available.
I need mana dorks, ramp cards, and really cool big fat things to bash the face with.
I need to protect my dorks with fog abilities and removal.
I need to know what I am going to play what turn to put out my fatty.
Then I look for decks that fill that strategy and proxy test them until I know what the ins and outs of playing the deck are. Finally I pursue the cards and make changes where necessary.
TLDR:My point is that you need to have a strategy that plays to how you play. You might have the number 1 winning $1,000,000 deck with all bombs in the world but it does not help (and often is more costly) if you do not know how to pilot it. Then you can focus on meta game.
February 16, 2015 1:49 a.m.
The most important thing are basic-lands and other lands and how many of them do you need in your the deck!
February 16, 2015 3:13 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #33
Deciding whether your deck is worth playing based on the meta, and determining what cards based on meta.
This makes control decks hard to build.
February 16, 2015 3:35 a.m.
I will outline how the process works for me, with examples here on T/O.
- Get the spark - get invigorated by an idea. It can be a single card, an interaction or something entirely unique or making your own spin on a popular deck.
Vengevine is criminally underplayed, so I made a deck around it. Kor Skyfisher + Reality Acid was a great combo in Pauper (minus the warder part), so I made a deck with it for Modern after discovering Leonin Relic-Warder. Commander allows for 1 copy of a card only? Started deck building with 35 Shadowborn Apostle.
- Playtest your jank version. Seriously whatever you build unless you are LSV or something, is going to be jank. Playtest several games, then get back to the drawing board.
That is how budget acid trip evolved into azorious acid trip.
- Evaluate your meta game first before considering changes to the deck. Determine at what level of competitiveness you want your deck to be at, then aspire to conquer that event with the deck at hand, whether it is the kitchen table or the Pro Tour.
Last FNM, I played the Dredgevine deck at FNM and faced 2 RW aggro decks and Zoo. So, after the matches, I mainboarded one of the Gnaw to the Bone to improve my game one vs those decks and brought the gnaws in the side to 2, improved from the single one in the SB before.
Repeat steps two and three ad nauseam. Rarely is a deck ever finished. azorious morphine trip is finished as of now and I have not made changes to it in recent memory, but it took more than 1 year to get this point. None of the decks have reached that point so far.
Enjoy the process of deckbuilding and playing the deck. This is one of my serious problems - I do not enjoy playing the decks I build nearly as much as I enjoy building them. I know everyone is different, but try to enjoy both sides of Magic.
Ask me anything if you want help in building a deck.
February 16, 2015 4:15 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #35
The initial idea of what archetype as well as the availibility of the cards you needs to you
February 16, 2015 4:34 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #36
I had an interesting path leading up to the creation of my most recent deck (Rakdos Aristocrats in Standard) that could be a decent case study.
I started wanting to build a deck around Necromancer's Stockpile, but quickly realized that the Zombie selection in Standard was pretty slim. However, a couple cards caught my eye: Sultai Emissary and Black Cat. I then went about looking for sac outlets in Standard and came across Qarsi High Priest, and I tried to make a hybrid Manifest / sac deck in both BUG and BG. Initial playtesting (here on t.o.) proved that I needed another reusable sac outlet, which led me to Tymaret, the Murder King and a more focused Aristocrats-style BR build. At long last I knew I had a viable idea after some t.o. playtesting. Playing the deck in tournaments has led to some tweaks, but it's mostly the same, and it has performed very well.
Ergo de facto, I feel that the research and initial playtesting are the most important factors when it comes to building a competitive deck. You will certainly need to play it for realz to fully optimize it, but most of the heavy lifting comes well before any cards are sleeved up.
February 16, 2015 5:03 a.m.
CUTYOHAIRFOO says... #37
I find the first 10 games or so with a deck to be invaluable. Preferably against strong / competitive meta decks, and preferably against different decks, but regardless of this I find it invaluable to sit there and just jam a bunch of games against an opponent.
Playing 1 set is pretty susceptible to variance. You want to play like 3 or 4 sets AT LEAST before you start reaching conclusions about the deck, unless they are really obvious ones.
Then comes the part where you sit there and lay the deck out and stare at it and go though hypothetical thoughts and tweak numbers.
Usually this involves, for me, figuring out which cards I want 4 of against the field of my opponents, which cards I want access to consistently but don't want too many of, and figuring out which cards I just want 1/2 of for some kind of useful application / tech or for the sideboard because they overperform against some other deck.
Then you go and playtest more.
February 16, 2015 5:18 a.m.
toofarjimmy says... #39
Decide what your core strategy is, find cards that fit it, and make small adjustments to improve consistency against a variety of other strategies.
February 16, 2015 6:24 a.m.
weisemanjohn says... #40
What is fun to play.
Why spend the time building a deck you don't want to play.
This definitely follows the reoccurring post of the initial idea.
Look at the cards, find a theme that you like an work from there. If it works, good, if not then then refine it. But make sure you take a look at the deck as a whole every once in a while to see if it still matched your style.
February 16, 2015 7:29 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #41
Step 1 Get an idea
Step 2 Research your cards
Step 3 Build a virtual deck
Step 4 Repeat steps 1-3 as much as required when ready skip this step
Step 5 Build it, Sleeve it and Box it.
Step 6 Play it, think of improvements and return to step 1 at any time.
Focus: Follow the plan above.
February 16, 2015 7:32 a.m.
SiegeRhiNOOO says... #42
how to play in drafting.But IMO, it is heavily thinking on what cards will you put on a deck, and choosing colors.
February 16, 2015 8:24 a.m.
SiegeRhiNOOO says... #43
Wait, what the hell. I must be using drugs while typing my previous comment. ._.
Anyway, picking colors which best suits you is the most important thing I guess.
February 16, 2015 8:26 a.m.
ZooGambler says... #44
Grit. Sticking to your idea even if you have a frustrating loss streak, figuring out WHY, what's working and what's not, and truly understanding your deck to the point where you KNOW what impact even a 1 card change will have on your deck. What it's strengths are and its weaknesses.
February 16, 2015 9:18 a.m.
For all intents and purposes, I'm typically playing commander so take this as you will.
I believe deck building comes down to a simple, yet complex, philosophical principle. No matter what you play or want to build for, it is important the deck somewhat reflects who you are as a player. Cheesy, probably. True? I believe so. Competitive players, casual players, and even net-deckers... They all build decks around strategies they respect and love.
Think about it. Why do people gravitate towards specific color combinations? You play the colors you want, reflecting what your goal is and to achieve that goal with the deck. After all, certain colors do certain things. Furthermore, as players, we use cunning, understanding, and creativity to build the decks we want. Play what you want, play what you value; after all, the end result of this game is fun. If winning means you're having fun, do it and do it well. If you just want to play with friends for fun, then your deck will ultimately reflect that. Hell, even net-decking works. After all, net-decking is the result of respecting or highly valuing the creativity of another. I know plenty of net-deckers that have fun with their builds.
Some people take this game more seriously than others, and some players like to keep things casual. No matter what path people take, competitive, casual, or in-between, we play the game we love because we love to have fun.
February 16, 2015 9:22 a.m.
What you want to achieve with your deck. Pretty simple.
February 16, 2015 10:50 a.m.
AllAroundGeek says... #48
If you don't have an starting theme, combo, synergy, or way you are going to win. Then the deck is just never going to work
February 16, 2015 11:03 a.m.
THE DOLLARS! lol. (i havent read anyone elses responses im just gonna walk away feeling like i was the first one to say that)
February 16, 2015 11:05 a.m.
ExiliusGallant says... #50
I would say first is the idea, because that starts up the mana base and support cards. When you have a clear idea of what s the deck going to do, everything else comes quite naturally. And it keeps you focused when you start digressing.
HolyFalcon says... #2
Figuring out what lands and how many.
February 15, 2015 6:48 p.m.