Community Discussion: Judg(e)ment Day
General forum
Posted on Feb. 23, 2014, 8:39 p.m. by Epochalyptik
First CD thread since the site went down!
Judges are the individuals that keep the game running. They help organize events (especially at the FNM level), keep tournaments running properly, and answer questions when necessary.
However, different judges do different things. Some players have had great experiences with them. There are lots of stories about judges who stick up for the new player when the FNM regular loses his temper. But there are also lots of stories about judges making the wrong calls or giving rulings that aren't actually based on the rules. Beyond that, small shops often use their most knowledgeable player as a stand-in judge if they don't actually have any certified individuals available.
What kinds of experiences have you had with the judges you've encountered? What do you think of the role and qualifications of your judges or pseudo-judges? If you're a judge, give us your opinion from the inside!
SharuumNyan says... #3
My LGS has a L1 judge on staff, which is great for tournaments, but sucks for casual play. It's kind of annoying when we're playing a casual commander game and he wants to judge it like we're playing a Pro Tour Legacy event because nothing else is going on.
February 23, 2014 9:20 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #4
Our judge is basically whoever's running the event. I have no idea if they're qualified though. More often, if it's a basic question, I'll just ask the people around me or even my opponent. :)
February 23, 2014 9:27 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #5
My shop has 5 very knowledgeable players that work there. If neither of them have an answer, they go to gatherer or some secret rulings website and find it. They add time to those players round. Nobody has ever had an issue with it.
If it's a bigger event, the shop brings in judges and rewards them handsomely. Almost to the point where I have considered taking the test to be a judge.
There is another shop in the area that gives favorable rulings to regular players only. That shop also bans non regular players after they win two events in a row... It's pretty much bullshit. Most of my shops regulars can't play there.
February 23, 2014 9:46 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #6
At my LGS, we've got two judges that run the events, a level 3 that is the "main guy" when he's there (He used to help with the huge events like GPs and such, but has since retired from that), and a level 2 that's been doing it when the 'main guy' isn't there. When neither of these two can make it for some reason, I basically just make sure that no one dies. That setup has been the case for years, and I don't think it's going to be changing until one of the two top guys either gets deployed or dies of Diabeetus.
However, there's also a ton of up and coming judges as well, our shop is basically a breeding ground for future judges. Aside from myself, there are 2 other Level 1 qualified judges, 5 RAs, and a small class of another 5 that we are currently working with to get to RA. On the other end, there's a guy that's been playing literally since Alpha who is potentially qualified to be level 2, but refuses to actually take the tests and get registered.
If anyone ever has a question at our place, there's pretty much always someone who can answer it. We never have any confrontational issues (The owners won't be having any of that), but if there were to be, there's also plenty of people that are qualified to handle it. Everything goes really well every week, and it's awesome. Things are a lot easier when it's not just one guy trying to get everything done and make sure it all goes well.
February 23, 2014 9:46 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #8
He's a very large man...
He seems very spry, but we're concerned for him sometimes. :P
February 23, 2014 9:52 p.m.
miracleHat says... #9
I have great experiences at prerelease's since pretty much nobody there actually knows how to use the stack. At the rtr prerelease, i attacked with 4 creatures one of them being Splatter Thug when he was at 5 life and had a Palisade Giant . He would've survived with the giant since it was six damage, but i Auger Spree d the Palisade Giant after first strike damage and before regular damage and killed him. He called the judge over and once the judge explained that i was in the right, he forfeit the entire tourney because according to him, the judge was biased.
From the bng prerelease, i won a game because somebody forgot their triggers. They had missed to triggers from inspiring Kragma Butcher when i was at 4 life. When i was at 4 life, he then said you are dead, i forgot to add the inspired damage. I called a judge over when my opponent refused to believe that wasn't dead, the judge explained that you can't miss your triggers. I have a reputation for being the dickhead in using the stack and missed triggers.
Another story about missed triggers, i was playing against a Geist of Saint Traft deck and he attacked with the geist. I said okay, he then said (and i quote), "okay, you now take six damage." I responded with no i don't, you didn't say that you were attacking with any angel. What angel are you talking about, their isn't even a token on the battlefield. I called the judge over and he explained again about missed triggers. Most of the time, i am okay with judges, but here is the only time i have had a problem.
I was at a new lgs that a friend had invited me and we were drafting m14. He attacked with his creatures and i had blocked that for he only had 1 big creature left. After combat damge during the end combat step when creatures are still considered to be attacking, i Celestial Flare d his last creature. He said that their wasn't an end combat step and called a judge over. The judge wasn't very smart and said that my opponent was right. In front of everybody i made a $20 bet that if the judge looked up on his smartphone and checked the rules, i would be right. He took the bet and that night i won $20.
February 23, 2014 10:35 p.m.
@Droxium: He doesn't have to announce he's attacking with the angel, the angel etb's attacking. He should have put the token on the field though.
And about missing triggers, I didn't know you have to announce every trigger. I'd kind of assume that inspired happens whenever you untap your permanent and it doesn't have to be announced. If YOU misread the boardstate that's your problem. He doesn't have to tell you that his inspired triggered as far as I know.
tl;dr: You do kinda sound like a dick.
February 23, 2014 11:15 p.m.
Nevermind, I thought he had just not announced he had inspired, if he had forgot himself that's his problem
February 23, 2014 11:21 p.m.
gnarlicide: That doesn't sound right at all, is there any way to call them on that by getting WotC involved?
February 23, 2014 11:23 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #13
If you want a trigger to effect the board state, it needs to be announced so that both players are aware of it. However, in the case of Geist, the angel doesn't need to be announced as attacking, though there should be a request for a token. Saying "Attack with geist, and I don't have anything for the angel, but that too" should suffice. If he had not known about the angel, that's a missed trigger, but he clearly knew about it as he had declared 6 damage. I would say that, based on the given information, you droxium were in the wrong there.
February 23, 2014 11:27 p.m.
miracleHat says... #14
@Lhurgoyf , you can call me a dick all you want. In edh, i play mono blue and Kaalia of the Vast in edh so that puts me under biggest dick in the world. But anyways, you do have to announce the trigger otherwise it won't happen and you would miss it, even if it is a must ability. The reason why i know this is because i have talked with different judges and their experiences, they actually know way too much magic for my liking, but it is still fun.
February 23, 2014 11:30 p.m.
I'm the judge at my local store, and I can't tell you how many times people don't believe me, then feel stupid when the tournament organizer looks it up and I'm right. I even correct him sometimes.
He still doesn't believe it, but he can't even imagine how Strionic Resonator , Toymaker and Aurelia, the Warleader can create infinite combat phases.
February 23, 2014 11:31 p.m.
February 23, 2014 11:35 p.m.
I guess it has more to do with non-visible ways of changing the game state. If he had announced he swung for six, then you are dead, that's all he had to do. But, for example if he hits you for two, then later says "Oh wait, sorry, I meant six. You should be dead." then it's too late.
Also, being a dick isn't a bad thing in competitive play. It's assumed you're playing to win when you play at Competitive or Professional levels.
From the Wizards Website: "The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state. Many triggered abilities, like exalted and the first ability of Jace, Architect of Thought, fall under this case. Say you attack alone with a creature with exalted. No choices are required when the ability triggers and is put onto the stack, so you don't have to say anything yet. No actions are required when the ability resolves, so you don't have to say anything then, either. (Compare this to an ability that instructs you to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature. The rules require you to actually do that at this point.) But, at some point, damage will be assigned and the triggered ability will have an effect on the visible game state, which includes life totals. This is the point when you need to say something. The bar isn't extraordinarily high here. If the creature is a 2/1 before the bonus, saying "take 3" is great, as is "plus 1 for exalted," and many other variations.
But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you."
February 23, 2014 11:47 p.m.
miracleHat says... #18
@kriskurse could you explain how the combo works? I am just terrible at figuring out how they work...
February 23, 2014 11:49 p.m.
Use toymaker to make Strionic resonator a creature, then swing with Aurelia putting her trigger on the stack. Then use the myr to make 2 mana, then activate resonators ability to copy Aurelia's ability. Let her ability resolve untapping all your creatures and you can repeat this process as long as the original remains on the stack.
February 23, 2014 11:53 p.m.
miracleHat says... #20
@Lhurgoyf: you do have a point, that i don't think I could beat. I believe though that you are misunderstanding me. he attacked with Geist of Saint Traft , when i said okay, i meant that as in i don't block. He had missed the angel when it was during declare attackers. He then said that he had the angel two phases later which is too late.
February 23, 2014 11:59 p.m.
There are two Level 1 judges who attend my game shop regularly and I have had great experiences. They are for sure making sure rules are being followed but in a kind way, and they take the time to explain things to new players.
I haven't played any higher then the FNM level but if a judge isn't around on any given day there are other veteran players who can answer rules questions and should probably even be judges themselves. I'm glad judges and experienced players are around to keep the games running smoothly.
February 24, 2014 1:08 a.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #23
As a judge and rules advisor, I want to just say that we have it rough. We don't make friends with players. That's not what we're there for. We're here to enforce the rules to whatever REL we were asked to. If somebody is a new player at an REL 4 event, I can't show mercy on them. I know my rules, but I'm happy to have somebody question or correct me if I've made a mistake.
Don't treat us like bad guys, we don't wanna give you a game loss. You bring it on yourself, every time.
February 24, 2014 1:31 a.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #24
Addendum: You bring it on yourself unless the judge is a horrible shitty judge, which is the vast minority of us.
February 24, 2014 1:32 a.m.
kriskurse- so abilities can stay on stack throughout phases in certain cases like this?
February 24, 2014 2:15 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #26
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the current rule for missed triggers require both players to keep track of the game state? It's hard to prove intent in Magic, especially in confusing board states, but allowing your opponent to miss his Geist of Saint Traft trigger on a clear board should be a game state warning for both players.
In the end, the controller of the ability is going to be the one held accountable, but if an opponent is found to be intentionally letting you miss triggers, it's a big no-no.
Right?
February 24, 2014 4:20 a.m.
RussischerZar says... #27
No, they changed this some time ago.
Basically you're not allowed to 'miss' detrimental triggers (warning etc), but if you miss beneficial triggers (like the angel) your opponent doesn't have to point it out and he also doesn't get penalized for not doing so.
February 24, 2014 5:20 a.m.
gnarlicide says... #28
Lhurgoyf , I am not sure if there if there is a way to call them on it. I honestly never looked it up. It's one of those shops that I just don't go to at all. I used to go there when I was new in town, and the players are total dicks to non regulars. When I found the shop that I play at now, what kept me there was that the players were nicer and the owner keeps it classy. That shop is so nice, that I am willing to pay a little more for singles than going online to support the owner. It also helps that the second shop is the only one that offers a military/student discount. 10% off everything adds up when you're buying legacy stuff. Lol.
February 24, 2014 5:43 a.m.
My store has a many knowledgeable players, about 3 lvl 1 judges and a lvl 3 judge. They usually make the right calls. Even if they are not 100%, they check a website to make sure the right call is made.
I think the longest judge call though was made by me at the botg prerelease. I cast Raised by Wolves on a creature and then bestowed Nyxborn Wolf onto it. We didn't know if the Nyxborn is still considered a wolf. That took like 10min.
February 24, 2014 7:53 a.m.
Tempest No, you keep the original Aurelia trigger on the stack in the same phase copying it as many times as you want, then once you are satisfied with the number of combat phases you will recieve once this combat ends, you let the original resolve.
February 24, 2014 8:32 a.m.
I don't think my LGS has a judge on hand, we just get the storekeeper to help us do rulings. He seems decently knowledgeable and I have had no complaints, though I don't think I've ever encountered any particularly difficult rulings before.
February 24, 2014 9:45 a.m.
the3rdH0kage says... #32
We have 1 Lv 1 judge in our area. And this area consists of 4 different shops, he goes around kinda like a rotation to 3 of them ( the fourth doesn't have FNM yet, it is a pretty new shop). But all of he shops have a couple people who should be judges or RAs at least. I know for the State tounrnament last fall, I was asked personally by the TO ( who is that L1 judge) to floorjudge because he was understaffed and I was the person who knew the most. So I got to judge a Competitive REL event as an L0. It was fun, I'm hoping to go for my L1 soon. But anyway, one of the shops staffs are all RAs or people who are prepping for their judges test. Another was a guy who should be like an L2 judge. And I don't generally go to the 3rd shop because the regulars there, so idk much about the knowledge of that shop
February 24, 2014 10 a.m.
GreatSword says... #33
I don't have a LGS, but I do try to go to Standard and prereleases events when I can, so I see lots of different judges. That said, I haven't had a bad experience with any. The last one I went to screwed up a few times (deck list error, and tried to kill a Mutavault with Victim of Night ). Both times the judge handled it curtly but professionally.
I've had to call a judge for a friend of my opponent disrupting our game with coaching. The first time they got a warning, but he kept doing it and both got a game loss. My opponent lost the match because of it, and the coaching friend started the next game at a loss. They were younger kids and didn't understand, but the judge explained to them that they were at a competitive event and not at their kitchen table.
February 24, 2014 10:48 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #34
Droxium sounds like how a higher level match should be played. In a FNM or casual game that is a terrible way to go about things. I would not want to play the game with you. Or if you are going to do that, why not give a warning or something first?
FNM level is a competition, but it is also more then that. If you make people hate you, they may stop playing the game. Douchebags can already be a sterotype for this kind of thing. When there are less new players, the game will suffer.
February 24, 2014 11:56 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #35
To clear up the missed triggers thing: A trigger counts as missed once it's blatantly obvious that it was missed. Specifically, the controller of a triggered ability needs to acknowledge it by the time it would first have a visible impact on the game. This means a token needs to be put onto the battlefield at the appropriate time, P/T changing triggers need to be acknowledged by the time the creature would deal or be dealt damage (or another effect needs to reference its P/T), life gain/losses resulting from triggers have to be recorded at the appropriate time, and any zone-changes need to happen at the appropriate time, among other examples. You're never responsible for helping your opponent to remember his missed triggers, and you're not allowed to purposefully miss your own triggers (that's cheating).
Pretty much all of the experiences I've had with judges are good ones. The only "bad" things I can think of essentially boil down to situations where the judge wasn't explaining something clearly enough, and it took a bit more time than necessary to resolve what was going on. I've been waiting in the wings of "Rules Advisorship" for a while now, and have gotten encouragement from judges multiple times to get certified L1, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm sure I would enjoy it, especially since I would still be allowed to play in the small-ish FNM events I like to go to.
@NotSoLuckyLydia: What's "REL 4"? I've never heard anyone talk about the levels like that before.
February 24, 2014 12:45 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #36
Oh, I understand that. I am all for playing 100% by the book in a GP or other big deal. FNM is not that. It is an environment that is aimed at fun, and learning.
February 24, 2014 12:50 p.m.
GreatSword says... #38
I think it's like the Highlander; you have to destroy another Judge and absorb his power.
February 24, 2014 1:01 p.m.
megawurmple says... #39
I've sort of become a "pseudo-judge", if you will, at my LGS. By that I mean that I will attempt to answer any judge calls in the absence of our owner or a proper judge. I'm not certified or anything, but I know how most of the rules of the game work, so people will often ask me for help. If I don't know the answer, then our owner is called over.
February 24, 2014 1:03 p.m.
Addendum to Missed triggers: here is the policy for missed triggers at Regular REL (FNM, Prerelease, Game day, etc.)
A player forgets a triggered ability (one that uses the words when, whenever, or at usually at the start of the ability's text). These abilities are considered missed if the player did not acknowledge them in any way at the point that it required choices or had a visible in-game effect. If the ability includes the word may, assume the player chose not to perform it. Otherwise, add it to the stack now unless it happened so long ago that you think it would be very disruptive to the game - dont add the ability to the stack if significant decisions having been made based on the effect not happening! Unlike other game rule errors (which must be pointed out), players are never required to point out their opponents missed triggered abilities, although they may do so.
Just so everyone is clear.
ArmMeForSleep709 the process for becoming a judge is detailed here. The basics are that you must pass a test of rules and policy knowledge and be recommended by a Level 2 judge.
February 24, 2014 1:04 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #41
@Rhadamanthus: REL is Rule Enforcement Level. Typing it out is a pain.
Here's the Judges Corner video for the different RELs.
REL 4 was older terminology, and, because I got certified as a judge a while ago, I occasionally mix stuff up. REL 4 was right beneath pro tour level of enforcement. I still say duel loss sometimes too.
February 24, 2014 1:15 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #42
Okay, thanks. I do know what the current RELs are, but I didn't know whether the number was old terminology or some "high level slang" I hadn't heard yet.
February 24, 2014 1:30 p.m.
We have several L1 judges and one L2 judge at our LGS. He's not biased in any way and I've not made a bad experience with a judge so far.
February 24, 2014 1:44 p.m.
A lot of people are talking shit about our judge, but I like him a lot. We've made some trades and played a great commander game together.
February 24, 2014 3:55 p.m.
I had a bad experience on my first shot at FNM. Thankfully I'm not a spineless baby, so I went back many times regardless.
I had won every game that night, and was on my final match. The judge came over in the middle of the final game. He watched for a while in silence (he's a creepy guy, and my nerves were a bit shot from unexpectedly winning so much, so I didn't really enjoy his presence). He stopped the game some time after. He asked what turn it was. I had no fucking idea, and neither did my opponent.
So he says that I drew an extra card. He didn't see me draw an extra, but when he counted graveyards he thought that I had one more than I should. He says: "I need to talk to you outside." So he takes me out to the front of the store and interrogates me. All the while, all I can say is: "I don't know man. If I drew an extra, I didn't mean it. I'm just here to have fun."
Eventually he talks to the other guy. My opponent decides to let it slide, and gives me the win. 1 card probably wouldn't have made a difference.
It was just a frightening night, honestly. I don't know whether I really drew another card - seems a bit sketchy, especially when I had cards that draw extras like Mentor of the Meek . The owner of the store thought the judge was being a dick, and the guy isn't really a fan-favourite.
And now I have an official warning. Did I ever tell you how much fun FNM is?
February 24, 2014 5:03 p.m.
The one store I go to has at least two L1 Magic judges on staff, and I think it's three, but the store runs several other card game tournaments daily so they need to have a versatile staff. The other store is more casual and almost never holds "tournaments" and it's sort of a judge-by-committee, but we're pretty laid back so no one gets into a hissy-fit if they get hosed.
I actually have also considered taking the judge exam, but I don't think I'm anywhere near ready to do so.
February 24, 2014 5:11 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #47
Wow KevinBasham! That guy sounds like a total a-hole. I don't even know if a judge is allowed to do that, especially if he didn't witness you doing anything wrong and your opponent or a spectator didn't complain. If a judge did that to me I would be reporting him to the DCI (which you can do by the way).
I was a bit harsh on my judge when I posted. He's actually a total dude...but just doesn't know how to step out of his judge shoes during casual play.
February 24, 2014 6:03 p.m.
Also, another important note: I am not a judge but I keep a copy of the comprehensive rules handy and have the best knowledge of the rules out of my friends.
So when we play Commander and there's a rule question I'm usually the guy who answers it.
February 24, 2014 8:19 p.m.
Honestly I've only had one time where the judge didn't give me the right call. Basically, my opponent casts a Doom Blade targeting one of my dudes, I respond with a Ranger's Guile . The judge said that ranger's guile wouldn't work because targeting already happened.
aside from that instance, I've had good experiences with our judges. They're pretty cool guys and don't make you feel like an idiot for talking to them.
February 25, 2014 2:13 a.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #50
@TheGamer - Come on, you gotta give us the answer. I know I was curious, so I looked it up. Although it took me only 2 minutes, having a copy of the rulebook is handy (MTG Familiar is THE BEST APP EVER).
205.3h Enchantments have their own unique set of subtypes; these subtypes are called enchantment types. The enchantment types are Aura (see rule 303.4), Curse, and Shrine.
That doesn't give us the concrete answer, but this seals the deal:
205.3d An object can't gain a subtype that doesn't correspond to one of that object's types.
So for those of you wondering, it wasn't a Wolf, since Wolf isn't a type that corresponds to enchantments.
DrLitebur says... #2
For me, at my LGS, they use a stand-in all of the time. 90% of the time they know the answer, so everyone is cool with it! and we go with it. Sometimes they do not, and it becomes an almost judge-by-committee situation, and we come to a group consensus for a particulariy difficult or tricky rule, and everyone is very happy with that. I'd like a person who had a "Final Answer" to things, but you do what you can.
February 23, 2014 9:13 p.m.