Cipher and other "Deals Combat Damage"-effects.
Asked by Lucy_Is_Scary 12 years ago
My ninja deck has a distinctive weakness against black decks, due to relying on the Throat Slitter and Mask of Riddles quite a bit~So, by searching around a bit, I found an interesting card: Trait Doctoring . This card could very well be used to keep my strength against black decks. But the question is: If I encode Trait Doctoring on, lets say, the Throat Slitter ... If my Throat Slitter deals combat damage, can I use the cipher effect before the on-hit ability of the Throat Slitter resolves? As both effects happen at the same time, I think I can choose the order and thus, I could change the effect to "...nonwhite...", for example, using the encoded Trait Doctoring and then let the Throat Slitter 's ability trigger and destroy a black creature.
If this doesn't work, would this work if I attack with another creature, encode Trait Doctoring onto this other creature to then be able to change the color restriction of the [[Throat Slitter]?
Absinthman says... #2
It doesn't work as you describe it because the ability that Throat Slitter
has is a targeted ability. Even though you can put it onto the stack before you put Trait Doctoring
there, when you put it onto the stack, you are required to choose its target. At that point, Trait Doctoring
has not resolved yet, and the ability still reads "nonblack".
However, you can cast Trait Doctoring
from your hand and target Throat Slitter
to change it to nonwhite, and then attack with it. Althought there is another issue, as the Mask of Riddles
gives fear, which means it still can be blocked by black creatures. If you are worried about black decks, you should maybe search for some other way to make your guy connect with your opponent.
June 11, 2013 1:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
If you could encode Trait Doctoring onto a creature with first strike, then the cipher ability will trigger and resolve after the first combat damage step (i.e. before Throat Slitter 's ability triggers in the second combat damage step). This would allow you to change the text of Throat Slitter 's ability before you are required to name the target for that ability.
June 11, 2013 1:44 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #4
First Strike, eh? I see no way of running first strike within my ninja deck - would also be too much of a roundabout way. Still, it's a bit annoying~ Even if I run 4 Trait Doctoring , the main strength of my ninja deck is to permanently control the enemy with my creatures mainly, not my spells. Also, if I board 4 in, I still have to take some out, which would all be a nuisance. But still, thanks for the quick answer - but it seems like Trait Doctoring won't solve the problem I have with black decks.
Also, sure that one cannot change the text of "fear"? I am not quite sure, but as far as I know~: Abilities like fear are simply a short version of actual text - especially as many old cards only have the "long version", for example Sleeper's Robe , I think one could be able to change the text.
June 11, 2013 2:06 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
Having a keyword ability doesn't add the full CR entry for that ability to a card's rules text. The rules text only contains the keyword, itself. Note that the current Oracle text of Sleeper's Robe doesn't use any color words in its rules text, just the Fear keyword (reminder text never counts as rules text).
June 11, 2013 3:45 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #6
Hm, really? I think they just wanted to make things look "better" by using such nice keywords - and also, make card text shorter. For example, Suspend nigh always has a reminder - But if that keyword wouldn't be there, it would be pretty harsh to fit in the text of Fungal Behemoth .
That the oracle text for Sleeper's Robe is different is a given. Would be neat for such Text-changing abilities if the "meaning" of the keyword would be altered. After all "fear" is pretty much the same as "Can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or black creatures."
June 11, 2013 3:55 p.m.
now that i see this topic just wanted to ensure that, if for example a Boros Swiftblade ciphered with Stolen Identity and attacks and is not blocked....how many tokes does it puts? 2?
June 11, 2013 3:59 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #8
Not 100% sure, but I think it would trigger twice - first strike damage+normal damage. The damage source may be the same, but you actually deal combat damage twice~ Could be a nice combo, i guess.
June 11, 2013 4:08 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
The Cipher ability triggers whenever the creature deals combat damage to an opponent, and an unblocked creature with double strike will deal combat damage twice - once in the first strike damage step and again in the normal combat damage step
June 11, 2013 4:18 p.m.
2 triggers for sure. Whenever it deals combat damage, and it would deal combat damage twice.
Just like Markov Blademaster
Also, first strike or double strike doesn't seem too hard to add and can be beneficial in a ninja deck anyways. Your Throat Slitter would trigger twice if equipped with a Fireshrieker for instance. Of course equipment and ninjutsu don't work super well together, but you're already using that fear mask so
June 11, 2013 4:29 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #11
I can try out adding double strike to the deck, true~ Didn't of that. First Strike is just utterly unbenifical of itself to the deck, as I do not do a lot of battling in any case. I wonder then~ What options other than Fireshrieker would I have? And is there any cheap blue/black creature with some kind of unblockability(Intimidate, Fear, Flying or plain unblockability) that comes with first strike/double strike on it's own? I can't think of any, but it could help in mending my weakness against black decks.
June 11, 2013 4:35 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #12
Oh and btw: The fear mask is rather great. Sure, sometimes I have to re-equip it, but that is totally worth it~ After all, I used to use Sleeper's Robe , which is much worse than that mask, except for the fact that it does not cost 4 mana to take effect at first. For that, however, I do not have to worry to lose the buff that the both of them give, even if I use ninjutsu or something like that. It's rather nice.
June 11, 2013 4:38 p.m.
the closest i could think of where: Drogskol Reaver and Crypt Champion
i noticed double strike is generally red or white card when monocolored, blue , green and black barely have shplashed cards with this ability...
June 11, 2013 5:27 p.m.
ninjas love Umezawa's Jitte , but it's not modern legal.
otherwise creature based removal in u/b to deal with black creatures are either bounce or sac effects. Fleshbag Marauder , Gatekeeper of Malakir , AEther Adept , Mist Raven and the like.
June 11, 2013 5:36 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #15
@Ruric: See my problem? But I may test the Fireshrieker in the deck: Increases my damage and my brawn, as my deck is especially un-brawny(But it does not need to be). Some more damage is always welcome and double-strike just synergizes well with Ninja, as far as I can see. Gotta tinker a bit around with my deck....
@shuflw: Well, the Jitte would be great xD But heck, it's great in most decks, actually. Dealing with black creatures in general is not that much of a problem. I've got Mistblade Shinobi and Into the Roil in my deck, making bouncing relatively easy. Other than that, I've got Go for the Throat x4 in my deck - so I am not helpless against black creatures anyway. The problem is, that I rely rather much on my Throat Slitter to keep the enemy under control. After all, the advantage of my Ninja deck simply is: Permanent control. I do not need to use spells to control my enemy, I mainly use my creatures.Black decks make my Throat Slitter nigh useless if not useless and make my Mask of Riddles drop in use quite a bit, too. I can board Okiba-Gang Shinobi +Whispersilk Cloak +Another Mistblade Shinobi to even things out: Mistblade Shinobi for more bounce, Okiba-Gang Shinobi for control through discard+synergy with the extra bounce I have and Whispersilk Cloak for the extra unblockability and the shroud effect, which is usually useful against black decks.
In any case, as this simple question has quite a turn, yet a good one for me, here is the deck I am talking about: NinjitsuIt's quite strong as it is already~ Lots of counter and destruction and with an answer to nigh everything.
June 11, 2013 5:55 p.m.
Jodah's Avenger could be useful...shadow plus double strike....
June 11, 2013 5:56 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #17
@JasonMB: The cost just ruins it. If it would cost 4 or less mana, I would think about it(Though, 4 would already be heavy for my deck).
June 11, 2013 6 p.m.
Ok, then I'd aim for the Fireshrieker - a 2 equip cost isn't too heavy either. This one is costly and don't think you need the other effect: Grappling Hook
At least with those blue/black
If able to get other colors (or any colored mana) could use Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
June 11, 2013 7 p.m.
Lucy_Is_Scary says... #19
@JasonMB: Well, as my Ninjitsu-deck works without any kind of mana ramping, I really wouldn't like splashing any color into it - especially since it is pretty heavy on the colored mana side(Lots of one blue/one black/Some Double Black/Lots of Double Blue). It works just fine without any kind of ramping.
The provoke effect combined with double strike is funny~ if I'd get it out with Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni , it would be devastating, just cherry-picking the creatures one by one. In any case, I'll see which cards I can actually take out to fit two Fireshrieker in my deck~ Always have a hard time taking cards out, you know "
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
No to both.
While it's true that you control both the cipher ability and the Throat Slitter 's ability and that both trigger simultaneously, you must name targets when you put the abilities onto the stack. You don't resolve one before you put the other onto the stack. This means that, no matter how you order them or what you target with Trait Doctoring , Throat Slitter 's ability will have to be put onto the stack before Trait Doctoring resolves. Therefore, you will not be able to alter anything before you must name the target for Throat Slitter 's ability.
June 11, 2013 1:40 p.m.