Mono B Devotion and Liliana
Standard forum
Posted on Dec. 2, 2013, 10:16 p.m. by Skulldrey
So this might sound stupid, but forgive me as I mostly play Modern and am just getting back into Standard.
But would Liliana of the Dark Realms be a good one-of in mono b devotion? Maybe take out Whip of Erebos or an Underworld Connections for it. It'd feed your Pack Rat with swamps and thin your deck, while presenting removal that recurs.
AnagonLordofSnakes says... #3
I'm sure she'll start being better once the new sets come out, people are going to need to tutor their shock swamps somehow
December 2, 2013 11:04 p.m.
She's already getting a second run because she sucked after her first printing in the previous core set M13.
December 2, 2013 11:19 p.m.
Behgz I wouldn't say Liliana of the Dark Realms sucked when she first launched in M13 she was simply out shined by the much more appealing version that was still in Standard at the time, Liliana of the Veil . Dark Realms is still a pretty potent threat you tutor/deck think all your shock swamps/basic swamps you can wimpify a creature or pump one to hell lol the ultimate is not so grand (unless you need that excess mana i.e Pack Rat /extort) when compared to previous incarnations but deck thinning is always a win and stops a dead mana draw. I dunno how well she'll work in MBD as I haven't run it yet, but I suggest you just test her out yourself Skulldrey as every meta is different.
December 3, 2013 5:19 a.m.
You could always use he as a sea engine to allow you to discard the land to packrat if nessisary.
Ohthenoises is a fan of it
December 3, 2013 7:15 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #7
She's good, but I don't think that giving up Whip of Erebos is the right answer. The whip gives you MORE advantage than Liliana of the Dark Realms does.
I think the best you're going to get from her to start is a -3/-3 removal (improbable to have 4 swamps out on turn 4 when running Mutavault or scry lands also)
If you run MBD with a splash, then she's a tutor target for a shock land which IS good. I like her in Orzhov Devotion as she can tutor for your white sources for Obzedat, Ghost Council
.
December 3, 2013 1:48 p.m.
Thanks for the comments, guys. Very intuitive. Owen Turtenwald's winning list at one of the latest GPs didn't even run a Whip, which makes me think the card doesn't accomplish as much as everyone wants it to. I realize Gray Merchant is a sick card to recur, but you're conflicting with Pack Rat for your mana.
December 3, 2013 3:07 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #9
If you run more than 2 Pack Rat I could see it possible, however most of the MBD decks have gone down to 1 x Whip of Erebos main and 1 in the side. (They used to run 2 in the main board).
December 3, 2013 4:28 p.m.
I think I will test it. In a build like Turtenwald's (Whose list I am going to be running) I see no disadvantage in drawing an extra swamp each turn. I don't lose the devotion from a missing Underworld Connections, either, as Liliana brings 2 devotion to the table as well.
December 3, 2013 4:33 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #11
I would think replacing an Underworld Connections would be best. Too bad there isn't anything to sync a bunch of mana into with monoblack and Lilly's ultimate without splashing.
Splashing blue you have Mind Grind
Splashing White you have Debt to the Deathless
Splashing red you have Rakdos's Return
December 3, 2013 4:49 p.m.
Rakdos Return seems the most viable. It's only 1 red and it would tear up control even worse than Mono b already does.
December 3, 2013 4:57 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #14
Splashing red also gives you access to Dreadbore which is Hero's Downfall 5-8 and Slaughter Games out of the sideboard.
Hmm.... Rakdos control/midrange/black devotion? Haha I'm sure a better name is there I'll let you make that up ;P
December 3, 2013 5:01 p.m.
scapertist says... #15
I'm testing one Liliana on MBD taking out one Gray Merchant of Asphodel because I hate seeing more than one of them on my opening hand. I see it as an important asset to this deck as a way to deal with Gods and it's a diverse type of permanent to increase devotion. Taking out swamps doesn't hurt either. Do not take out Underworld Connections ! It's the engine for the deck.
January 8, 2014 10:49 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #16
Really? Having multiple Gray Merchant of Asphodel means more "life draining" from your opponent. I LIKE having multiples of those but not to the point I can't cast anything for 2-3 turns
January 9, 2014 9:14 a.m.
scapertist says... #17
That's the problem. If you draw them at the right time kudos but if they appear in your opening hand with let's say three mana sources and a removal you'll just go land dropping until them with no further plan before.
January 9, 2014 7:12 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #18
You also have to think in the terms of "what can I draw for my first 1-3 draw steps?" to see if a hand is worth keeping.
In the example of the average monoblack deck, there are 24 3-CMC or less cards that you can draw to give you some "plays" instead of just "land dropping"
In this example I am using cards like: Devour Flesh , Pack Rat , Thoughtseize , Ultimate Price , Underworld Connections , etc
If you do the math, you will come up with the probability of having a "playable" card by turn 3 with the following information:
1 = 4 (Thoughtseize )
2 = 16 (4x Devour Flesh , 4x Ultimate Price /Doom Blade , 4x Pack Rat + 4x Thoughtseize )
3 = 24 (4x Hero's Downfall , 4x Underworld Connections , 4x Nightveil Specter , + 16 x 1-2 CMC drops)
Now that we have the total cards that are "playable" by turn 3, we do the math (assuming you are on the draw to start with and do NOT mulligan)
Turn 1 = 4/53 = 7.5 %
Turn 2 = 12/53 = 22.6 % (each draw and you have 2 here so 22.6% the first draw and 23.7 % for the 2nd draw if you don't draw a "playable" on the first turn)
Turn 3 = 24/53 = 45.3% (and you have 3 draws here to get one).
I'd say that ALMOST any hand that starts with 3 swamps and 4 "non land" cards would be good to keep because the mulligan you take has a decent chance of being the same or worse than what you started with. Don't always go by what your starting 7 cards are EXCLUSIVELY....think about the possibilities of your draws before you mulligan.
Craig Wescoe has some good insights on when to mulligan on tcgplayer.com You should check out his article
January 10, 2014 9:25 a.m.
If you're going to use Liliana, I would suggest 2x and not just a single. I have her in my MBD, but hardly ever draw her because I only have 1.
I only recently acquired Pack Rat, so the advantage I liked was keeping the Swamps dropping for Corrupt and Quag Sickness .
JWiley129 says... #2
Not really? I have a mono-black devotion deck, and liliana just conflicts with Desecration Demon and Erebos, God of the Dead . I'd rather cast either of them than cast Liliana of the Dark Realms .
December 2, 2013 10:37 p.m.