MTGA kinda sucks lately, no?
Online Magic forum
Posted on Nov. 1, 2020, 1:57 p.m. by abby315
Anyone else facing exclusively the very adaptable UB mill/control deck? Drown in the Loch is just NOT a fun card...
Anyway, even if you have fun playing the deck right now, it seems like MTGA has a meta problem. I think it magnifies any busted deck from "30% of the tournament meta" to "90% of the MTGA ranked meta," and that seems to drive WotC's extremely quick ban schedule.
I think MTGA has some design flaws that make unhealthy metas unavoidable. First and foremost, wildcards. They're so hard to get that players are heavily incentivized to spend them only on the best possible deck. There's not an easy way to craft and try out new decks. Fun pet decks or meta-busting decks just aren't worth it, because even if they're good now, they'll fall off when the meta changes and you'll be stuck with useless cards.
Second, the Mastery Pass. I got it for Zendikar for the first time because I did well enough in draft to get it for free. Holy crap, I noticed the change in my playstyle right away. You need to grind so hard to get the full value that it's frustrating to play any non-optimal decks. I had a UR prowess deck that I loved, but getting that first 3-4 wins of the day took so frickin' long that I just dropped it and built something meta. Ugh.
These are both things that could be easily tweaked and would help fix the horrible meta issue. It'd be much preferable than just banning all the broken cards or reverting to the power level of OG Theros.
TL;DR: MTGA wildcard and Mastery pass system encourage grinding and building the best meta deck, not experiment and playing for fun. This makes broken decks feel even more broken.
Just wanted to rant somewhere. Maybe I'm just too tilted by mill control! What do you think?
Omniscience_is_life says... #3
Standard is solved. It always is. What's different recently is RNR_Gaming's point about the speed in which the knowledge is disseminated--causing there to be less time before rotation of facing people still figuring it out.
Homogenization can be a problem, ofc, but it's extremely difficult to Cultivate a standard environment in this day and age that isn't so.
This is just my best understanding, I'm an EDHer who only plays in paper so...!
November 1, 2020 3:54 p.m.
This is exactly why I find myself playing yugioh duel links over MTGA... because you can grind that game/"wildcards" get handed out easily enough to where you can build off-meta decks because they are fun/you want to and yet with patience still get resources to netdeck to climb in ranked if you want.
HOWEVER I think meta problems are just unavoidable.... good decks are discovered/known and as others have said because of the spread of information its pretty easy to Google "competitive deck" and copy it..... at least in MTGA you dont have First/One turn kills.
November 1, 2020 4:08 p.m.
I agree with you both! (And, RNR_Gaming, I'm so glad to find someone who agrees about KTK standard!)
But honestly, I don't think information has really sped up since the advent of sites like MTGTop8, MTGGoldfish, and other tournament-stats-analysis resources. I guess there's an effect of using MTGA queue to disseminate knowledge of a good deck, but I think it's primarily from sites that analyze the top decks.
I think standard gets solved quickly either way, but MTGA doesn't have any built-in pressure relief valves that encourage players NOT to play the top deck. The two big reasons you'd want to play a deck is because it's 1) good or 2) fun, right? I don't have fun playing the UB control deck, even though it's good, so if this was an FNM format, I'd probably play a deck that's fun, instead. But there's so many disincentives towards building a sub-optimal deck on MTGA that just don't exist with FNM.
And the more people that play "fun" decks instead of "good" decks, the better the "fun" decks are.
Just thinking back to SOI/Eldritch Moon standard, the last time I regularly played FNM: Bant flash was far and away the best deck at the time. It was pretty oppressive. But at any given FNM, only 2-3 players brought it. That's pretty much how it would work in any format where the decks were too good, e.g. 30% of the meta. You could still have an off-meta or tier-two deck and face the best deck only around 30% of the time.
EDIT: I can also honestly say that when I played Eternal, a very very similar online card game, they definitely had the same problems of the format getting solved quickly. But cards were so much easier to get, and there was not an incentive to keep grinding wins past the first one of the day, that a bunch of people decided not to build the deck anyway. MTGA needs to incentivize people to play fun decks if they want to reduce the meta issues (or become godly at design I guess).
November 1, 2020 4:10 p.m. Edited.
The lack of diversity is one of the reasons I stopped playing Arena. When I gave it a shot, it seemed every single deck I played against fell into one of three categories:
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The netdecked "best" deck in the Meta, likely purchased for the reasons you indicated.
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RDW or White Weenies, since these two decks can be built to be decently powerful while just using commons and uncommons.
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Hastily thrown together decks built so opponents can do their daily quests, but which are relatively easy to defeat.
All told, the meta felt rather stagnant and repetitive.
November 1, 2020 4:27 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #7
While I agree with everything stated above, I consistently build and play what I want, hover around silver/gold, and spend around an hour (minimum) each day leveling up my pass, and storing up coins for draft. It’s just how I initially played Arena. It’s not optimal, but it’s fun and it works. I might not complete the passed, but I get a decent chunk. (Example: in M21, I finished 2 levels away from the fluffer.)
Sadly, this has made me abandon my alts (I made them for easier drafting), and I only ever draft to turn coins to gems on my main.
November 1, 2020 4:37 p.m.
Apollo_Paladin says... #8
The Anthology cards have completely screwed up Historic Format imo...particularly since they're not available anymore to newer players.
It's pretty hard to find a black deck in Historic MTGA that doesn't run at least a few Thoughtseize, or any number of Lifegain builds without Soul Warden.
There are other examples too, but the fact that so many decks run them makes it pretty clear how badly they've skewed the strength of certain builds. This isn't a massive problem for players who splurged on all 3 (so far) Anthology sets, but for those who missed one or two (or all, in the case of some people I've tried to get to play) it very much feels like too much of a "Pay to Win" dynamic.
I think some solutions that would help add a lot more diversity in Historic deck builds is: - if those cards were permanently available in the Store with a Coin buy purchase (however high), - they could be obtained as a random "Bonus Card", - OR alternatively, if there were a different format to filter decks with them out.
As it stands now, there is very little incentive for players who have bought all the Anthology sets to construct decks without those cards, as you can count on quite a few wins based on the sole fact that most non-Anthology decks don't have nearly as quick or efficient answers to play.
November 1, 2020 4:43 p.m.
King_marchesa says... #9
I agree that the play style on MTGA and the meta in standard has become stagnant. I will say that MTGA is a good way to play standard, because without it, I wouldn't have the same knowledge of standard as I do now. My friend had the mastery pass and would grind daily on MTGA and eventually got bored of it. Overall, I think that the standard meta is pretty monotonous and MTGA only magnifies that. A side point about wildcards is that I think that you should be able to get them more easily. This would cause people to work on more decks without having to worry about their wildcards.
November 1, 2020 4:54 p.m.
Apollo_Paladin Thanks for the input on Historic! I don't play it - since I can't afford it for most of the reasons you stated - but it does seem to have a card diversity problem instead of a deck diversity problem, yeah? I've seen there are around 3-4 good decks. I think that has to do with the relative power level of all of the cards, though, similar to what RNR_Gaming mentioned about KTK standard. It does make me laugh that they put Thoughtseize in a format with the knowledge that it's warped every format it has been in besides, perhaps, Legacy.
Also, I just found out from your comment that the Anthology bundles are only available sometimes. That's such a ridiculous decision in every way! Like that's both free money you're leaving on the table, as WotC, and a huge disadvantage to players who missed it!
November 1, 2020 4:57 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #11
King_marchesa Yeah I think the meta would be more diverse if it was easier to have more than one or two decks.
As for the anthologies, you can technically always get the cards via wildcard, but yeah, there isn’t even always an anthology in the shop.
November 1, 2020 4:59 p.m.
Apollo_Paladin says... #12
I play both Historic and Standard formats, and I have tried to get numerous friends to start playing MTGA. I myself started playing it the very second it released (crossed over from the horrid Magic Duels when it was abandoned).
I could no longer afford to keep up with my actual Magic Card collection, so the option of being able to save & obtain things on MTGA without requiring a cash influx was very appealing to me.
Even so, just the simple length of time I've been playing gives me a distinct advantage over new players who join. The numerous "freebie build" decks which periodically cycle in/out open up quite a few great Historic options (pain lands, for example).
I suppose it is true with actual Magic Cards as well that those with larger collections simply have a natural advantage, but what seems so limiting about MTGA (and why I can't get people to start up anymore) is that there is no way to focus on certain cards that end up being ubiquitous in the format beyond just shelling out coins for random packs (which kind of leaves them behind in the current formats).
There needs to be a more direct way of obtaining desired cards (even if it's not a guarantee; a way to earn a random Rare Land once a week, or other similar more targeted mechanics).
Also, in my opinion with Standard format, it is kind of inevitable that early-on after the big set switchover that there will be a lot of similarity among Deck Builds. There's just not as many sets to choose from.
November 1, 2020 5:06 p.m.
GenericToaster says... #13
The biggest reason that i dislike arena (and standard) is how monotone all games feel. Theres such a heavy emphasis on control decks, and even non-control decks run a ton of interaction. I always feel like every game comes down to trading 1for1s for 5 turns until the game can actually start. It get so annoying and old and its so unfun, and in my opinion, is just unhealthy for the game. Thats why i primarily play commander, since 1for1ing becomes so much less worth it, and you dont just have to throw cards out to see what removal that they could be running
November 1, 2020 11:18 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #14
Plays cycling on Arena, where your only removal spells are a sorcery-speed fight spell and Zenith Flare, which NEEDS to be pointed at face. (Best part: rogues make your flare bigger)
November 2, 2020 8:27 a.m.
I am a free to play gamer on Arena and have been the whole time. I'm good enough at limited that I have complete sets of nearly every single rare on the client (even though I've never actually climbed higher than platinum in limited). Jumpstart was an exception, you couldn't actually go infinite playing JumpStart, so im missing a bunch of those rares.
I only have time to do 1 draft per day max so it takes about a month for each set for me to acquire it. As a result my collection is complete enough that I can build nearly any deck that I could want to play in the whole app once each new set is about a month old. I must be in the minority because I've rarely felt like I couldn't easily build new constructed decks to adjust to a metagame.
So yeah I have the opposite experience from the OP. I feel like standard and historic are both in fantastic places and I'm super excited for Pioneer to get support on the client. Since the last bannings you can Brew pretty much whatever you want right now and play it to some degree of success. The rogue mill control deck can be annoying to play vs for sure but its still very beatable.
November 2, 2020 9:40 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #16
As someone who thrives in solving and breaking formats, and building brews against them, I love the spread of info on MTGA, playing Zenith Flare after mill took over I am hitting a 96% winrate.
If you don't like Arena, don't play it. I love the environment that it has!
November 2, 2020 9:57 a.m.
VampDemigod says... #17
I’m cheering for the last two posters irl Just because I feel like those sides don’t get said long enough. Not saying other people’s opinions are invalid, just feel like one is underrepresented.
November 2, 2020 10:03 a.m.
King_marchesa says... #18
I should try playing cycling, I currently am trying jund party and it doesn't really work that well, I want to try a reanimator deck with nethroi maybe.
November 2, 2020 10:24 a.m.
Apollo_Paladin says... #20
Not to dredge up an older post, but I stumbled upon something that I feel really highlights my point with how broken Historic format is anymore; what with the disproportionate distribution of players with/without the Anthology sets (which as mentioned above, are no longer available to new players).
Here's a list of the highest-ranked "netdecked" builds in Historic format currently. Note the abundant use of Thoughtseize, as well as many other Anthology-only obtained cards.
https://magic.gg/decklists/traditional-historic-ranked-decklists-november-9-2020
The second deck down on the list in fact has splashed Black mana for literally NO other reason than to cast 4x Thoughtseize. Literally zero other use for black mana in the deck LOL...
If this doesn't tell you something about how horribly skewed things are anymore with these sets, I don't know what will. I'm sure there'd be outcry but they really need to Ban cards like Thoughtseize altogether. Anymore it's really quite ridiculous.
November 14, 2020 3:47 p.m.
Honestly I used to love MTG and then when it came to an app I was giddy. But the fact that I barely string a win or two against what seems to be pros is killing the vibe that makes not only myself but anyone trying to “have fun” and play. There are some games it seems that last a mere 3 turns with mutations and milling decks. I’m no pro but I’d like to think I can hold my own against the normal crowd. This app is literally no fun. The decks I see out there are sooo evolved that I can’t keep up as a part time player. WOTC is going all out trying to get new players but they need to have a class system separating how good players are. And if they do already it’s not working
April 17, 2021 1 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #22
Mtink - Arena has a ladder though I feel like its becoming like hearthstone very quickly. Even newer players have teir 1 decks. Granted, they more than likely won't make it to mythic but this creates sort of a mesh of low skill + high deck quality that muddles the format. My best advice is hang in there and grind some wild cards.
April 17, 2021 4 a.m.
The game is full of win at all cost mill decks or the same 3 decks across the board. Not fun when you can't be different and want to play with deck building. It's monotonous and now having to just build a deck to play against everyone doesn't leave room to play whatever you want. go into any event and thats all you see. same 3 decks and a mill deck. IDK how the mill decks are even fun to play. I guess win at all cost but doesn't playing that deck get old?? I remember back when i started playing and people having the all counter deck with every counter card and thought the same thing. takes away from the fun of playing the game. IDK if there is even a fix for it but when not playing a counter deck you can't get more than 2 wins in a standard event.
May 28, 2021 10:36 a.m.
PheonixClaw says... #24
MTGA is rigged AF. I have gathered tons of people's story and accounts. It's full of bots, fake A.I / account's name and too often 250 cards deck so for MTGA to have the card on hand to beat you if necessary. I have also collected evidence. Free player? It's even worst. MTGA is a rip off and so many people refuses to notice it. I mean, how many times have you seen ajani + healer +/hawk being drawn on first and 2nd card draw drop? in a 100+ card decks? I mean come on!. This is just a mere example. I have talked to pro players and they said that they have recorded evidence, that these bots are not bad algorythms that are badly designed, no, its on purpose for you to loose. Now many asks ''What possible could WOTC have to make you loose?'' well, I know two reasons; 1. They wish to control the decks stats of win/loose meta. never beyond the 45-55% rate. This is for a number of reasons. 2. To make you buy cards in the hope that the next purchase will make you win. People who refuses to see it's rigged, they always give teh reason; ''Bah' it is only coincidence or bad A.i. Calculations on their pc. No! we are dealing with WOTC here,! a company with a BAD reputation. Wake up people!
October 2, 2022 9:24 a.m.
PheonixClaw Could you please provide a source for any of that?
Which pro players have you talked to?
Why would WotC prevent a win rate >55% digitally when decks occasionally get above that in paper?
Since it's possible to get wild cards for individual cards through both purchase and grinding, why would someone need to buy and hope?
Could you provide a deck list for the unusually reliable 250-card deck?
What non-anecdotal evidence have you or pro players collected?
October 2, 2022 12:35 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #26
..wtf did I just read?
People really think Arena is full of bots who top deck the perfect card against you every time? That’s Q-Anon level delusions, lmao.
November 26, 2022 12:01 a.m.
Therealsideshowbob I asked PheonixClaw several questions that have not been answered, and I would like to present similar questions to you.
Do you have a source for any of this? ("Google it" is not a source. Please provide a representative article, data set, or other defined source.)
Could you provide a deck list for the unusually reliable 250-card deck?
Goblin Charbelcher is known as the centerpiece of a highly damaging, but often fragile combo deck that is very capable of one-shotting an opponent. Do the Belcher decks you go against differ from this description?
Outside of winning and losing streaks of 15 or more, how often do you win or lose only one or two in a row?
How can you demonstrate that your wins are rigged?
What is the purpose of making a consumer angry at your product?
Who are matches rigged in favor of, and what is the purpose of artificially generating both winning and losing streaks for the same player?
What non-anecdotal evidence have you collected?
November 26, 2022 12:18 a.m.
Therealsideshowbob Joining a day ago, just to spam like that? You're not proving anything save that you are unwilling to offer evidence of your opinions. Making a claim, then telling other people that you don't need to prove it because you are right is something that my five year old niece knows not to do. If she's going to say something, she knows to point at what it is that caused her to say it.
Please provide links (even un-url'd in case that hasn't been activated for you) to support your claims, or retract them.
November 27, 2022 6:59 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #29
@therealsideshowbob
Dude losing twice to the same deck means the game is rigged? Lmao
If you lose to the same champion twice in League of Legends, do you think Riot is cheating the system?
If you lose to the same fighter in Smash twice do you think Nintendo is cheating?
Just because you lose to a similar deck doesn’t mean it’s rigged… It means your deck sucks against that deck. Play some artifact removal.
November 27, 2022 8:04 p.m.
Therealsideshowbob Before I review the links you posted, I am going to state that I am not an employee, representative, or in any way connected to Hasbro, Wizards of the Coast, or any division thereof, nor do I claim to have any influence over their policies or products. In short, I don't work for WotC, and suggesting I do accomplishes nothing.
Secondly, "i don't need a proof because i know what i know" and "the devs are the only ones with the actual data that they can manipulate to hide proof" is completely meaningless. As a parallel, I can claim that I know that the asteroid near miss from last July was a result of you trying to turn the South American continent into a glassy crater, and that you destroyed all your notes and plans when it failed. "I don't need a proof, I know what I know. You're the only one with actual data that you can destroy to hide proof." Both claims are equally valid given the evidence available, and the proffered "evidence' is equally useless.
Third, YouTube is hardly a more reliable source than "google it." Videos can be staged and edited. Could you please provide a link to a video you consider conclusive?
For my final comment before I look at the Imgur pictures, there are still unresolved questions.
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Outside of winning and losing streaks of 15 or more, how often do you win or lose only one or two in a row?
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How can you demonstrate that your wins are rigged?
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What is the purpose of making a consumer angry at your product?
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Who are matches rigged in favor of, and what is the purpose of artificially generating both winning and losing streaks for the same player?
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What non-anecdotal evidence have you collected?
For the Imgur pictures you linked, I see a Belcher deck relying on double-faced land cards, which are revealed as their front, non-land face. Specifically, I see a Spikefield Cave Flip, Sea Gate, Reborn Flip, Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass Flip, and what might be a Song-Mad Ruins Flip as the lands in play, and a double-faced card that I can't identify as part of the reveled cards. This is not only expected, but virtually required for the functioning of the current Belcher deck.
https://mtgazone.com/historic-izzet-belcher-combo-deck-guide/
This link has a decklist that I expect will be similar to the deck in the images you posted, and it has zero cards listed as lands. This is how Belcher decks work; the mana is provided from Treasure tokens and MDFC lands. In the MTGAZone decklist, there are a very reasonable 36 cards dedicated to mana production, with 24 of those playable as lands. I see nothing suspicious with the pictures posted.
RNR_Gaming says... #2
The spread of information is too fast. Pros figure out formats quick. With all the resources and free articles any format is going to be figured out quick. I just build mill on arena cause it was relatively cheap I like it but in also a tempo/control player; the issue is them not pushing limits on all colors. Khans standard was the best because every color/wedge had a deck. There is only mid range and mill/tempo so its stale.
November 1, 2020 3:40 p.m.