Boros charm help.
General forum
Posted on Feb. 20, 2013, 12:47 a.m. by rocorerer
If I were to Mutilate and my oppentent plays Boros Charm in mode 2, will everything still die? and I say die because I would like to know as I would use it with lets say Blood Artist . .... Please cite rules if possible!
Yes, indestructibility only protects against destroy effects, like Doomblade, or from lethal combat damage. An indestructible creature is still removed from the battlefield if its toughness is reduced below 0.
700.4. If a permanent is indestructible, rules and effects can't destroy it. (See rule 701.6, Destroy.) Such permanents are not destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the lethal-damage state-based action (see rule 704.5g). Rules or effects may cause an indestructible permanent to be sacrificed, put into a graveyard, or exiled.
February 20, 2013 1:05 a.m.
clcoleman15 says... #4
I'm telling you they don't die because the counters aren't permanent they go away so at the end of turn the creature is still there the only ways to get rid of indestructible creatures is make the player sacrifice it, exile it or infect counters ie PERMANENT -1/-1 counters
February 20, 2013 1:10 a.m.
clcoleman15 Doesn't need to be permanent. As soon as someone would receive priority state-based actions will check and see that the indestructible creature is below 0 toughness and it will be sent to the graveyard.
February 20, 2013 1:15 a.m.
clcoleman15 says... #6
Negative cause I you block say a 3/3 with a 3/3 indestructible they both take 3 damage but at the end of turn the indestructible 3/3 basically ragenerates and doesn't die. My cousin is a level 2 judge this is my source
February 20, 2013 1:28 a.m.
Uhhh...Sorry clcoleman, but actually Slycne is correct. He even made a direct rules quote from the good ol' rules book. The counters don't have to be permanent, the second that state based actions get checked, the game state sees that your creature has 0 or less toughness, and it is removed from the battlefield and sent to the graveyard. Essencially what indestructible does is stop damage sources from reducing the creature's toughness to 0. Effects that give -1/1 counters in any way circumvent that, and so Boros charm does not save the creatures.
February 20, 2013 1:34 a.m.
Right, but the key difference is that -1/-1 isn't damage though. A Tragic Slip isn't a Searing Spear . Those are two very different effects.
February 20, 2013 1:36 a.m.
Slycne is 100% correct here. clcoleman15, you are making your alleged L2 judge cousin look bad, because this is extremely basic stuff for an L2.
Lorickx, just as a note, indestructibility doesn't stop damage sources from reducing a creature's toughness to 0, because damage doesn't reduce toughness. Applied damage is marked on a creature, but it doesn't change that's creature's toughness. A 2/4 with 3 damage marked on it is still a 2/4, not a 2/1. Also, Mutilate does not give any -1/-1 counters. It just applies a P/T-changing effect.
I hope this clears up the discussion (which should have ended when the correct CR citation was made).
February 20, 2013 1:49 a.m.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, its put into its owners graveyard. Regeneration cant replace this event.
Since Mutilate is reducing the toughness (and power) by -1/-1 per swamp you control, it is possible to get an indestructible creature to have toughness = 0 or less. If this occurs it is not destroyed but placed in the graveyard as a State Based Action.
February 20, 2013 1:50 a.m.
Yes, the creature would die. This is why I looove Tragic Slip . Indestructibility only prevents lethal damage from combat or spells like Searing Spear or "destroy" abilities on cards like Murder or Plummet from removing the creature.
February 20, 2013 1:56 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #13
Let's clarify a couple other things here. Most of this stuff has been said but more support can't hurt.
Mutilate doesn't give counters of any sort. It gives creatures -X/-X, which has nothing to do with counters other than having a similar effect.
A creature getting "destroyed" is something that happens when it gets lethal damage marked on it or when a resolving spell or effect tells it to do so (i.e. Doom Blade and company). This is entirely separate from what happens when a creature has 0 or less toughness. clcoleman15, I think this is your hangup, because you're right in general - an indestructible creature will indeed shrug off damage and such, because even though the damage is still marked on it, it can't be destroyed. However, once again, being put into the graveyard is for having 0 or less toughness is different from being destroyed.
They both count as "dying," however, and both sorts of death will trigger Blood Artist and his ilk.
Last but not least, we do have an MtG Q&A section where you can usually put questions like this, rocorerer. You're liable to get faster and clearer answers there, and you can look up previous questions to see if yours has already been asked.
February 20, 2013 3:10 a.m.
@ MagnorCriol Noted, I will post there next time for sure.
To everyone, thank you for the answers and the rule cite, my meta is full of boros that load up the field and boros charm verdicts so as my favorite mana color I wanted a black deck to deal with them. Again thanks to everyone who answered with the correct answers!
February 20, 2013 12:59 p.m.
So, if I want to kill a "indestructible creature" (often are odious white knights!), the ways are:
- spell target with -x -x until end of turn: Dismember , Tragic Slip , Mutilate , Sickening Shoal ...- spell that gives -x -x counters: Incremental Blight , Contagion Clasp ...- infect sources by creatures (then proliferate): Glistener Elf , Phyrexian Crusader ...- spell that remove the creature from the game: Eradicate , Sever the Bloodline ...But... I can't DESTROY indistructible creatures with Damnation ... isn't it?thx!
February 22, 2013 3:48 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #17
When Knight Exemplar was standard-legal, I built and piloted (with...reasonable success, even) a monowhite knights deck built around that interaction. Two Knight Exemplar s would make your entire army Day of Judgment -proof, allowing you to exploit wrath effects for fun and profit.
February 22, 2013 11:43 a.m.
Interesting, but... i play black! :)
So, MagnorCriol, I've a question:
1- you have 2x Knight Exemplar and a White Knight ; I've 3x "generic" creatures2- you play Wrath of God to kill only my creatures3- then, because at least one creature died, I play Tragic Slip on one of your Knight Exemplar 4- so, does Wrath of God kill also at first the other Knight Exemplar , then also White Knight (because they weren no longer indistructible) ?February 22, 2013 12:19 p.m.
No, because by the time you've had a creature die so that Tragic Slip would send a Knight Exemplar to the graveyard, Wrath of God 's done resolving and won't destroy any more things.
February 22, 2013 1:11 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #20
erabel is correct. Destruction effects like Wrath or Doom Blade are specific, one-time events. The Knights simply are or are not destroyed at the moment the world goes boom and that's that.
Now, if instead of Wrath, someone cast something like Blasphemous Act , then everything else happened as you described, then yes, all the knights would die. This is because damage is still marked on indestructible creatures like normal - indestructible just prevents the effect of lethal damage, it doesn't prevent the damage itself. So all the knights would have 13 damage marked on them, and if you managed to get rid of one of the Exemplars then they'd all go down.
February 22, 2013 1:16 p.m.
That would kill the Knight Exemplar if it were damage, as the damage has still been done, and does not get removed until the end of turn. After the Tragic Slip removes the first Knight, state based effects would notice a 2/2 creature with 2+ damage, without 'indestructible', and it would be killed.
"Destroy" effects, however, only apply at the time the spell or ability resolves. The effect does not remain like damage does.
clcoleman15 says... #2
No cause they only get the -1/-1 till end of turn
February 20, 2013 1:04 a.m.