Is Progenitus good sideboard option against mill?
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on July 25, 2015, 8:56 p.m. by Wiktul
I know that legendary eldrazis are most common choice, but they can't dodge Rest in Peace. Progenitus can, the only problem with him is that in the end I will have to draw him as the very last card in my deck, assuming that opponent will mill everything else out.
Let's say I'd keep my hand at 7, to draw him as 8th card, discard him and do it again. In my deck I'm playing creatures with shroud, that will resist any removal attepmts from my opponent, so I can do fine killing them even with a single creature. What would you say then to Progenitus as a sideboard option against mill deck?
How does Progenitus help you at all? It just returns itself to your library. You're better off with effects that shuffle your graveyard back in to your library if you're worried about mill.
July 25, 2015 9:13 p.m.
If you are losing to mill you either need to a) make your creature deck faster, or b), run counter spells. I don't know what format you are playing, or if it's just casual, but you should be able to deal 20 points of damage before they can get rid of sixty cards in your library.
July 25, 2015 9:32 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #5
The Eldrazi are better. They shuffle the graveyard. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
July 25, 2015 9:41 p.m.
unless they are running Sphinx's Tutelage. That card is stupid effective. add any kind of draw ability, and it gets out of hand fast. In all my playtests, it has averaged 4-6 milled per card draw. add the multipliers to that, and you can easily hit 20-25 cards per turn. which would equate to 6-8 pts of life in comparison, and usually these effects are uncounterable...
July 25, 2015 9:46 p.m.
If mill is a serious issue for you, Gaea's Blessing is a fine card to run. Just be aware that if this topic is trying to dig up info on stopping infinite mill combo's, you're milage may vary.
Will work with Painter's Servant and Grindstone (well, will cause a draw as far as i'm aware), you will get to shuffle, effect will continue, infinitely.), will not work with Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience. Will also not stop infinite card draw "mill" effects.
July 25, 2015 9:46 p.m.
Programmer_112 says... #8
@kyuuri117: The interaction with Painter's Servant and Grindstone doesn't work the way you think it does. The Gaea's Blessing ability can't actually be put on the stack until the Grindstone ability has fully resolved, so all of the cards in the library will go to the graveyard before the Gaea's Blessing trigger goes on the stack, at which point the entire graveyard will be shuffled back in. So, Grindstone will mill the entire library, but then the graveyard will be shuffled in, so the end result is the same as just shuffling the graveyard into the library, barring instant-speed targeted draw like Blue Sun's Zenith
July 25, 2015 9:54 p.m.
You do realize that Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Progenitus say the exact same thing right? They would both be exiled because it's still a replacement effect, meaning that since they wouldn't go into the graveyard, they won't be shuffled back into the library. This means that they would still be exiled. Protection means that it can't be targeted, but RiP doesn't target. This means that you should use the Eldrazi, even though, like others said, mill isn't a popular archetype in competitive modern.
July 25, 2015 10:06 p.m.
Programmer_112 Right, a bit tired, that should have been obvious. In that case, it does work well against painter.
SirFowler Well, they are similar, but they are in fact different. Emrakul says "when Emrakul is put into a graveyard", so it actually has to hit the yard. Progenitus says "If it would go to a yard, shuffle it back in". It never touches the graveyard. So no, it wouldn't be exiled.
July 25, 2015 10:10 p.m.
kyuuri117 Progenitus says "If it would go to the graveyard", but since RIP is a replacement effect stating "If it would go to the graveyard, exile it instead", meaning that Progenitus wouldn't even be able to be shuffled into the library in the first place.
July 25, 2015 10:24 p.m.
Rest in Peace requires a card to be trying to go to the graveyard before the replacement effect kicks in. It sees a card trying to go there, says "nope, fuck off" and exiles it. Progenitus never tries to go to the graveyard, at all, and as such doesn't interact with Rest in Peace.
That is how i've had it explained to me from a couple different judges at a couple different legacy events.
July 25, 2015 10:26 p.m. Edited.
Here
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected objects controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
The controller chooses what happens to his/her Progenitus.
July 25, 2015 10:28 p.m. Edited.
Progenitor only shuffles itself into the library, Emrakul shuffles the entire graveyard into the library. That is a HUGE distinction.
July 25, 2015 11:19 p.m.
The reason that Progenitus isn't affected by Rest in Peace is because Progenitus says if it would be, the eldrazi say when it is.
July 26, 2015 1:13 a.m.
Yup, the Progenitus mechanics works exactly as kyuuri117 is saying. That is why I asked about him in that matter. Thank you all guys for your strong response, but the thread is not about IF MILL DECK IS REALLY ANY CHALLENGE TO SUCH A NOOB AS MYSELF (as first posts could suggest), but about pure theory.
Eldrazis are exiled with Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void - simple as that. For all who still have any doubts about that, Emrakul, Ulamog and Kozilek ARE falling into a graveyard and only then their shuffling effect can trigger. They can be also ressurected from that graveyard (with Goryo's Vengeance or Shallow Grave) as well as exiled with any other effect, like Beckon Apparition and so on. Porgenitus, in terms of mechanics, never hits the graverd, nor it even tries to do that. Elixir of Immortality seems nice as long as you have it on the table. Sideboarding it x1 or x2 against mill is pure lottery and I can bet that it will be milled as well as any other cards from your deck. Against mill, drawing it is a lottery and in lottery mill have much more options of achieving it's goal then I.
Getting back to my first assumption - 7 cards in hand - Progenitus as 8th draw means that mill can never kill me. Or... It doesn't? That is exactly what I'm curious about, not if the mill decks are competitive in modern.
July 26, 2015 5:20 a.m.
If Progenitus is in your hand then you can still be milled out. Theoretically if you are milled enough, even with Progenitus in your deck, he will end up being the last card in your deck. Then you draw him and lose on your next draw step.
July 26, 2015 11:33 a.m.
Yes, I realize that, just as I said in the post above :) In the post above, just above your post, I'm also giving into consideration option in which - when I know I'm going to be milled out - I'm keeping my hand at 7. Then, even if Progenitus is the last draw, after drawing him as the last card i have to discard him as 8th card in hand. Next turn I will draw him again. That means, that mill can not win.
July 26, 2015 1:29 p.m.
I mean yeah, but it also means you can't play anything for the rest of the game. Not exactly ideal...
July 26, 2015 1:31 p.m.
Of course it's far from ideal, but much better option then my opponent's. I can't be milled - I can't loose, he can't win. If he has no removal against any of my creatures (especially if the have hexproof), I will kill him in the end or... I'll win after he draws his last card, what won't happen to me :)
July 26, 2015 1:34 p.m.
What if this mill deck is running Jace's Phantasm or Nemesis of Reason?
July 26, 2015 4:21 p.m.
Well, as long as I'm running Simic Sky Swallower and Inkwell Leviathan - probably nothing :P But I'd love to hear some mill players in this topic :)
square711 says... #2
Do you even need to sideboard against mill...? The archetype isn't really played competitively, and it often loses to its own ineffectiveness. If people play a lot of mill in your meta, which I kinda doubt, then just run Elixir of Immortality. At least it's useful against burn too.
July 25, 2015 9:06 p.m.