"Post-Rotation" decks
General forum
Posted on Aug. 28, 2013, 1:36 p.m. by Itzmogz
Is it just me or does anyone else see how irrelevant it is to make "post-rotation" decks. Use your support lands and Blood Artist before they're gone! Also a new block is going to stem so many new archetypes that having your ready made post rotation deck will just put you at a disadvantage if you're stuck on it or invested to much $$ on cards in it. Just from the Theros spoilers that are out now, this set/block is gonna shake up standard as we know it, basing that on the strength of the first revealed God alone!! Maybe I'm wrong but I'm just sick of seeing (post-rotation) after all these decks that should be enjoying what they have while it lasts and preparing for what's to come. That's my rant about that anyways!
MindAblaze says... #3
I agree. Your deck has the opportunity to be more powerful now than it has been at any point in the standard season and you handicap it by saying "Don't suggest cards from M13 and Innistrad block." My favorite is all the "post-rotation" decks that still use the checklands...hypocrisy that's what that is.
Ok, so Liliana of the Veil
and Snapcaster Mage
are expensive, Olivia Voldaren
and Huntmaster of the Fells
Flip
are leaving. Bye Bye Thragtusk
...These cards have been staples for the past year and a half for a reason. Use the best cards while they're here, then build new decks in the fall.
Aggro is going to be the rage come October anyway...
August 28, 2013 1:42 p.m.
Yes, that is definitely a viable option as well. I have one deck that is in that state but I'm also very open to seeing what new archetypes stem in Theros!!
August 28, 2013 1:43 p.m.
I think it's just you.
It's very relevant to look ahead, see what you will have to learn to play without and design a deck concept that can be altered as new cards are released.
If you plan on playing in high-level competitions for the next month, it would not make to do this... but if you want to build your own deck (without net-decking a few weeks after release), it's a good idea to practice with what you know you will have.
Making a good post-rotation deck that can hold it's own (if not win) now, means you're more likely to do well when Theros is released.
If you're right, and the entire game of MTG becomes drastically different and the deck concepts currently being worked on fail... then those making their decks are no worse off than those who are not. - But thinking that a few powerful cards will mean that the entire meta is altered is just as pre-mature as thinking there will be no change at all.
August 28, 2013 1:47 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@Rayenous: I must disagree with your last point. It's not a matter of thinking the meta won't change. It's a matter of acknowledging the meta will change and playing the best of what's available until that happens. Some decks will stop existing after rotation, and other decks will spring up out of nowhere. Because it's impossible to accurately estimate what will happen (we don't even have full spoilers for Theros at this time), it makes no sense to short yourself on power in the hopes of having a different deck - one that still may not even survive the rotation.
August 28, 2013 1:57 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #7
I totally agree with you Itzmogz! It makes no sense to build a deck to play post-rotation without having seen almost 25% of the legal cards. And, they haven't released a single non-basic land yet, which can make or break people's ideas. Even creating a shell of a deck makes no sense right now
Either play what's currently in standard and get the most out of awesome cards while they last, or wait a few weeks to build your deck.
August 28, 2013 1:59 p.m.
MindAblaze! you really hit the nail on the head man!! Lol, all that bein said though I am hella excited to see what new standard brings. I started in 94, quit in 5th edition, and just restarted in RTR after like a 13-14 year break haha. So this has been the only new age standard I've seen!!
August 28, 2013 2:05 p.m.
I think it is about timing and that can be different depending on the person.
I plan to add in a few more theros cards to my EDH decks. I took the exact attitude that MindAblaze! suggested with regards to the impact of slivers on the game. I can't "wait and watch" every time something new is coming up because things are always being rotated in or out or spoiled. My EDH decks weren't touched or changed by so much as a single card all summer until this past week - they needed a revamp and the timing looked right based on some other things going on in life - not just the cycles of new and old cards.
But I see no reason why there won't be room to replace a few cards or even add an extra deck come Theros in addition to finally revamping according to months of planning and testing and the changes that I did know about already.
August 28, 2013 2:19 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #10
I'm just as excited as the next guy to see what's ahead in Theros, but I agree "post rotation" is not actually post rotation, it just means using M14 and RTR block cards. The lack of acknowledgement towards the fact that the meta will shift substantially is really irritating. I know people are trying to create Esper Control decks without Snap and Resto and other people are trying to create bant pants without Geist and it's puzzling because you're creating an inferior deck and saying it's just "post-rotation." Like hell it is, it may not jive with the new meta at all and there's no way for you to know that until the whole set is spoiled.
What's more annoying are comments about cards I'm using in decks until Theros block starts (resto, dissipate, snapcaster) simply sating the obvious fact that they'll rotate out in x days.
August 28, 2013 2:27 p.m.
i've been wanting to make this rant for a while. 100% agree with the op. only 3 weeks until prerelease, so maybe 2-2.5 weeks until full spoilers are out. i can see putting together deck ideas for post rotation (this is a free deckbuilding thinktank site after all) but i don't think you can expect any concrete advice from other members when we all have incomplete information.
with that being said, all green decks post rotation should run 4x Naturalize ;-P
August 28, 2013 2:29 p.m.
... you guys do know that there's this site called tapped out and you can built literally hundreds of deck without spending a penny right?
Also brewing can help one figure out what cards they should be collecting. Also rtr block will likely still be the majority of the cards one will use, multi color cards are generally more powerful than mono color, also we won't be getting the full theros block until around half a year so some block strategies won't be at full power anyway.
August 28, 2013 2:46 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #13
See, but that's not what people are doing. They're creating versions of their old decks with just m14 and RTR block that may or may not be viable in one month and then lying by saying that they're post rotation when they really aren't. We don't even know all the mechanics yet, how are you going to tell me your deck is post rotation?
August 28, 2013 2:53 p.m.
Who are these "people" who are not doing that?
I'm a person, and that's what I'm doing... as are most people I've spoken with that are making "post-rotation" decks.
I didn't take my old deck, and make it post-rotation. I took the cards in M14 and hints WotC provided about Theros and began making a post-rotation concept deck. If I can make it better with Theros, all the better, if not I'll change it.
Why people would rant about the fact that some people want to look at post-rotation ideas is beyond me. It may not be your thing, but others have no reason not to do things their way. - I don't see them complaining about you NOT making post-rotation decks.
People asking you to make suggestions without INN block or M13 is no different than Standard players not wanting to get suggestions for Modern cards. - Do you complain that Standard deck designers don't want Modern suggestions? - If not, why would you complain about post-rotation designers not wanting pre-rotation suggestions?
I understand you may feel it's a waste of time (and possibly money if they build it), but that's their decision. Many feel like the design is a unique, once a year, challenge. Others may just be anxious for the change.
Ranting because others don't think like to is quite insulting!
August 28, 2013 3:18 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
The majority of "post-rotation" decks I see are current Standard decks gutted of all their ISD and M13 cards in the hopes that dropping them now will keep the deck alive later. That idea is fundamentally flawed because we have insufficient information about the future of Standard and what Theros will bring.
We aren't saying people don't have a right to brew whatever decks they want. We (or, at least, I) am saying its misguided and naive to think that dropping your existing deck's ISD and M14 cards will make it survive rotation. It just shorts you on power.
August 28, 2013 3:25 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #16
Epochalyptik hit the nail square on the head.
August 28, 2013 3:29 p.m.
Play modern, problem of rotation isn't completely solved but it drastically reduces the impact on the Meta 98% of the time.
August 28, 2013 3:36 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #18
@Rayenous - how do you go about building a deck based on vague hints? What I know about Theros is that devotion is like chroma (hinting that mono-colored decks will be a thing) and it will also have a full set of "dual" lands (hinting that many-colored decks will also be a thing). I wouldn't even know where to start based on that.
August 28, 2013 3:40 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #19
Exactly. You're not being fair to yourself if you try to brew without Theros cards.
Understanding that your current Standard decks won't be viable in a few months is a good thing, but trying to brew new decks with no information is a bad thing.
August 28, 2013 3:51 p.m.
I'm so tempted to create an old UW Delver deck and tag all of you...
August 28, 2013 4:11 p.m.
Hinting that there will be Dual-Lands is a key part, as it lets people know that it is likely that 3 colour decks are possible...
Looking however at other comments, they have stated that the power of multi-color cards are higher than they would normally like, and would like to reduce this a little. (Burning Earth is an example of a card that supports this.)
From this, I would expect that 1 and 2 color decks will be more common, and 3 color will become less common... but all will still exist (hard not to after RTR multi-color block)
The idea that Theros has an Enchantment theme suggest that there may be a need to lessen the focus on creature removal, and look into more generic permanent removal. (Detention Sphere for example.) - Recently discovering that some/many of these enchantments may/will also be creatures/artifacts... etc, has supported this idea, but also means that many of the powerful permanents will have additional vulnerabilities.
Knowing that Elspeth is to be printed in one form or another gives rise to the idea/theme of Soldiers and amassing armies of creatures which specifically support each other. This usually means key cards that MUST be removed/prevented. - Further support to this provided by the first spoilers with the R/W Legendary Hero.
The concept of singular power cards (cards that are viewed as powerful on their own, like Kalonian Hydra ) are shown through the pre-release Monsters vs. Heroes theme... these powerhouses are typically vulnerable to removal, and little needs to be done in terms of worrying about them. Rather, disrupting their supporting cards (ramp, evasion, draw, etc.) is important.
Putting all this together, I came up with a concept deck for U/W control. I played it against current meta at FNM and ran 3-1-1. - Now I have an idea as to where it's weaknesses are, and have an idea of what type of cards I should be look for in the spoilers. (The scry ability of Thassa alone make her look worth while in my deck... though I may wait to see additional cards might make her more viable by allowing her to become a creature... currently Jace and Detention Sphere are the only cards that could help her get there.)
...So, yes, there's a lot you can do without knowing the cards, and simply looking at the hints.
I understand that not everyone who is making "post-rotation" deck is getting this involved, but to simply lump "post-rotation" decks together as these ranters have been doing is quite insulting. It suggest to others that they should not be making suggestions on these decks. This in-turn prevent individuals from getting assistance on their deck ideas. I didn't think that publicly putting down other peoples ideas and preventing assistance was what the site was about.
August 28, 2013 4:14 p.m.
I do agree but at the same time I don't. With 1/3 of my selesnya token and my monogreen decks gone I have to get set for the rotation. With that I have made an Orzhov extort deck with only cards I own, and with only using the RTR block and M14 cards. I don't have the money to spend on single cards so I made it from scratch. Now I am a n00b when it comes to building decks. But I need something to play when rotation hits, seeing as I go to FNM every Friday night. Will it win? I have not a clue if it will or not. But to me, its exciting to be able to find out. And if its a bad idea to use this deck at FNM then the people who are there every week with me will let me know and I will change it accordingly.
August 28, 2013 4:17 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #23
Well there's a difference between taking what already exists and gutting it and building something completely fresh.
Most of the shell of a UW control deck already exists in standard now, similar things could be said for an Izzet aggro-control, Boros or Golgari of some form or another. There's nothing wrong with planning for rotation, but for the people grinding FNMs don't expect to take your RTR block constructed deck in and win when the power cards of INN block are well established.
As Rayenous said, we know what's out there. Guessing based on what is here and what may be is fine...just don't get your panties in a knot when somebody says..."__ would fit well into this deck," if you have your deck labeled as standard.
August 28, 2013 4:23 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #24
I agree with this. Although with standard staples from INN going down so much (see: Huntmaster of the Fells Flip ) It seems pointless to me to shell out the money on a card that could be half it's price in less than a month. It's a money thing for most people.
August 28, 2013 4:33 p.m.
Understandable, I am also not playing it at FNM until rotation so I can get it and myself prepared for the rotation. And honestly I don't expect to win now with the decks I run.
August 28, 2013 4:35 p.m.
If you don't think people should be flagging their "post-rotation" decks as Standard... what should they flag it as? Anything else will only invite more card suggestions that are unwanted. - Besides, these decks are Standard... just a temporarily restricted version of Standard.
Perhaps there should/could be a "Post-Rotation" option for deck Format? Though it's likely a lot of work for a "format" that will only exist for a few weeks per year.
August 28, 2013 4:38 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #27
You can choose "Pre-release" as the option for deck format...technically it's "pre-release" of the set...although the fact that there is a Pre-release Event would be confusing for people.
All I'm suggesting is for people working on post-rotation decks to have a bit of a thicker skin. Not everyone reads the descriptions that we work so hard on, and some people are just trolls who suggest pre-rotation cards just to spite you. I personally haven't been commenting on decks tagged as "post-rotation" simply because what we think is good now could radically change in 2 weeks...I imagine a lot of people building the post-rotation decks have the cards that are being suggested anyway...
As rache has suggested, I've been focusing on my Modern decks. We'll look at Standard again in a month or so.
August 28, 2013 4:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
@Rayenous: I see your point, and I don't discount it. I just think you may be a bit jaded because post-rotation decks are, as you point out, being broadly categorized.
I just think it would be easier if people would stop labeling their decks "post-rotation" because it's an unrealistically premature label for something that is meant to be played in a competitive format. It's fine to have theory decks, and I encourage pre-rotation experimentation. However, there's little logic in bastardizing an existing decklist and calling it "post-rotation" because there's no way to say for certain that the deck will survive the rotation, and it isn't properly designed for the rotation. Nobody can design a proper post-rotation deck without all the spoilers available. In the week between prerelease and release days, I can understand the idea. But to try this kind of labeling months in advance with little hard information is, as I said earlier, misguided and naive.
August 28, 2013 5:18 p.m.
thataddkid says... #29
Some players creating post-rotation decks are like me, new players who have little to none key Innistrad cards and don't feel like shelling out the cash for a month of use in standard. I got into MTG right after Gatecrash was released, and my deckbuilder's cards with Avacyn's Restored, Innistrad, and Dark Ascension were mostly traded for higher powered dual colored cards of the RTR block. Making these post-rotation decks isn't gutting out a huge plate of options for some; it's the only way to stay viable. I could pick up some Bonfire of the Damned tomorrow and smash face at the next FNM, but I would be short hella cash and see only a month of use. This post-rotation strategy is using the available pool of cards for me; someone bashing it without any thought to those with a lack of pre-rotation cards seems to be ignoring a large factor in the meta- cost.
August 28, 2013 6:24 p.m.
@Alarron: I wish more people were in your boat with your attitude when it comes to building post-rotation decks. Sadly, I see more of "Taking my post-INN deck to FNM! Plz don't tell me to use Lightning Mauler since it's rotating." Then on Saturday morning "Update: WOW WTF I LOST TO A BUNCH OF NETDECKS WHO ARE LAZY AND JUST PLAY WITH EXISTING ARCHETYPES GG NO1 UNDERSTANDS MY GENIUS!!!!!11!"
Seriously, if you have access to the cards and they're not going to put a hole in your budget, there's no reason not to use them. At my LGS, Thragtusk dropped to $5 about 2 months ago, so I picked up a playset to use in a deck I enjoy. It's beyond me when people skip out on using 25 cent commons and uncommons at FNMs when they can afford them (it's understandable if you can't, a dollar is a dollar and sometimes real life matters more), instead buying up playsets of Ral Zarek for the sake of post-rotation.
@Rayenous: Part of the issue is that I've actually seen people show up to FNMs and other tournaments using post-rotation decks, then wonder why they don't do well. For example, I played against a Naya Midrange built for post-rotation at an FNM. Sure, you have Loxodon Smiter and Elvish Mystic with Advent of the Wurm , but he wasn't using Farseek . He had all the shocks, was telling me he was thinking about playing Voice of Resurgence , but no Farseek ? 25 cent card that's essential to any Midrange deck in Standard.
So no, I don't think we're overreacting.
August 28, 2013 6:26 p.m.
Rayenous No one is specifically putting people down for what they are doing, I've been giving like 10-15 decks a day advice on ways to improve them, including many that say (post-rotation). I was simply stating like what has been said, the ones that are just keeping an existing archetype by cutting Innistrad block and M13 cards and planning on bringing that INTO Theros. Not even planning to see what's new to aid their deck for the better.
You make very vaild points in your last post, but your assumption that this is some kind of bashing is far fetched. If all of the people making post rotation decks did research like you apparently do then they would be in a much better spot come rotation. All this was, was me stating a fact basically about people not preparing properly if you really want to break it down, not a thread teasing or making fun of anyone.
meecht says... #2
IMO, people should be creating the shell of a deck they want to run post-rotation, then use Theros cards to fill in the empty slots.
August 28, 2013 1:40 p.m.