Modern Masters 2015
Modern forum
Posted on April 19, 2015, 3:50 p.m. by HolyFalcon
bla bla bla, something about how overpriced packs and stuff don't actually get people into modern, bla bla bla
But really, it's kinda stupid WotC makes MM to get people into modern, then prices it extremely high. Thoughts?
ChiefBell - What I meant in my post that after you introduce 40 more players where there used to be ten by printing more copies, it will be more desirable. That's what happened to Goyf. More people started playing, so while supply went up the demand went up faster.
April 19, 2015 8:10 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #3
The solution is to print staples with REALLY bad artwork. That way, the secondary market still lives off of the good artwork cards, and noobs get their disgusting white bordered Tarmogoyf drawn by a 13 year old girl.
April 20, 2015 2:53 a.m.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Reprint all modern staples with artwork drawn by 8 year olds with crayons
April 20, 2015 3:23 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #7
Then WotC can claim to be helping to community by getting kindergartens to participate in the art department.
April 20, 2015 3:44 a.m.
KrosanTusker says... #8
I don't think the problem regarding 'Goyf specifically is to do with Wizards. There are, actually, plenty of Tarmogoyfs in circulation -- retailers like SCG and CFB have loads -- but the prices are kept artificially high by the stores themselves.
Comparatively, this is not a supply issue. This is not a supply issue.
This and this and this: these are supply issues.
To a large extent, and particularly regarding high-profile Mythic-level cards, people being kept out of Modern by the financial barrier to entry are the victims of the large retailers, not Wizards. I think Wizards are doing kinda alright on this. There has to be a balance, and I just wish that MM2 would sell for MSRP.
April 20, 2015 9:19 a.m.
I will point out something that I don't think was addressed. If it was, I apologize for my impertinence. MM1 didn't drop prices much. We all know that. We also know why. With MM1 we saw a huge influx of new players to the format.
So naturally, increase the availability of staples, prices will be unaffected if an equivalent number of people join the format. I don't think Wizards preficted such a huge boom, and I would argue that seeing that MM1 brought so much entry to the format, it's fair to say it DID make it more accessible, even if current pricing doesn't reflect that.
Now they are printing MM2. Larger print run than MM1, telling us they learned from previous experiences. I aggree the draft will boil down to 30$ forced rare drafting and I certainly won't draft the format. But reprint goyf and karn and what have you, forced rare drafting will be inevitable.
I think MM2 isn't perfect (what is I ask you?) but it certainly is a step in the right direction. As a fairly new modern player, (read: I don't have many staples) I'm pretty happy about it.
April 20, 2015 4:30 p.m.
However, most of that print run is being used by Wizards as prizes for GPs etc etc. They have already stated this. Therefore the ACTUAL supply to shops and to the guys who really, really want those goys is relatively lower.
We're unsure just how much the supply will go to players who like actually play modern, and want it etc. This is something that wasn't the case to the same extent with MM1
April 20, 2015 4:34 p.m.
KrosanTusker says... #12
That is an angle I haven't thought of. This pisses me off.
April 20, 2015 4:58 p.m.
True that MTG Lion was explaining that most stores will have a hard time getting more than five cases, most of which will end up reserved for drafting. Huh. Makes sense now.
Related question. When is the spoiler season likely to be?
April 20, 2015 5:09 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #19
There's an implicit understanding that, unless a card is on the reserved list, it can be reprinted. And those reprints may lower the value.
Any 'invested' player who complains about reprints, at whatever rarity (goyf, for limited purposes, should be an uncommon) is misunderstanding how collectables work.
Its just unfortunate that Wizards, even after the reserved list debacle, still cares more about investors than players.
April 21, 2015 9:11 p.m.
Barry_McKawkinner says... #20
I think they should take care of invested players.
April 21, 2015 10:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
Still cares more about investors than players? Are you kidding?
April 21, 2015 10:03 p.m.
jethstriker says... #22
This may seem a little off topic regarding MM, but I think Named_Tawyny has a point when he said they care more about investors / collectors than players.
For example, several years ago the reprint policy states that it will never reprint cards in the reserved list and functional reprints of them in a regular distribution. This does not include promotional / special releases such as Judge Promos (Yawgmoth's Will), Duel Decks (Phyrexian Negator), From the Vault (Memory Jar), etc. I for one find this loophole in the policy a good outlet for Wizards to release reserved cards without flooding the circulation and crashing the value of the original print. Then Wizards decided they want to revise the reprint policy to take no exceptions. In my opinion they wasted a good opportunity in this.
Just stating my thoughts and opinion.
April 21, 2015 10:53 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
Do you understand how limited the scope of a special release or judge promo generally is? It would have done nothing to the original price and only produced a newer, probably shinier (and therefore exponentially more expensive) version of the old card.
April 21, 2015 11:10 p.m.
I had no idea pendelhaven was at $20....i just gave my Italian copy away to a friend who needed it,I have a feeling he'll be happy.
April 22, 2015 4:18 a.m.
I really love how every discussion about MM2015 comes down to: "goyf is too expensive, pls fix this shit WOTC".
Well then let's look at how many topdecks there are, that don't need to play Goyf: U/R Twin (without a doubt currently the best deck in the format). Trouble-cards: Scalding Tarn, Snapcaster Mage, Splinter Twin, Cryptic Command. These four cards alone set a very hard to overcome barrier for entry players and 3 of them will most likely see no reprint.
What about Burn? That's really a "cheap" deck. Only cards that are somewhat expensive: Goblin Guide and Blood Moon, both will likely see a reprint.
You can also play Affinity. Mox Opal and Etched Champion are going to see a reprint most likely (champion is already confirmed iirc), that leaves Arcbound Ravager as expensive.
These 3 decks make up ~ 30% of the current meta-game, which means they're definitely T1-decks (alongside Abzan and Infect). So is it really a "goyf-problem"? I admit that the current price-tag is too high for a piece of cardboard - but so is the price of any modern staple ever. I'm a bit reminded of little kids that want to have, what others have, but can't get it and therefore want it even more and get mad. I know it sucks to not get everything you want, but that goes for everything in life - why should magic be different? Either you suck it up and spend 800$ on your playset goyfs or you don't/can't - but then don't complain. After all it's a collectible card game and thus some cards are more valuable than others - deal with it.
I'm happy with WOTC's current reprint policy of high value modern staples. I bought some valuable cards and don't want them to become worthless over night. Also the growing modern playerbase indicates, that WOTC is doing a lot of things right.
April 22, 2015 9:39 a.m.
Named_Tawyny, "reserved debacle"? Many people may disagree but at least Wizards has been consistent with the reserved list. It's better than going back on it, at this point. And you can't say they care more about investors, that's just not true. Reprints of shocks, thoughtseize and fetches are evidence that they want to lower barriers to entry of modern and help new players, as Epoch said. For God's sake people, they can't just go make a million goyfs and give them out wherever. I would love to have a playset, yes, and they are extremely pricey, but the U.S. Government can't just go giving out checks to poor people because they don't make any money - that would ruin the entire concept of the money system! Oh wait...
All jokes aside, it's a simple matter of introducing gradual supply is better than adding way too much or no supply at all. Modern Masters is a good thing for collectors, players, and Wizards.
April 22, 2015 9:45 a.m.
80% of modern decks won't play goyf.
But as you said yourself the cost of modern staples generically is fairly high. So it's not a case of kids wanting to get their own way. Its the case of people just generically wanting to play magic but being unable to. As you pointed out - Twin is an expensive deck. Affinity is also expensive. They're a lot less expensive than Abzan - you're right, but they're still fairly pricey. About the only 'cheap' decks are mono U tron and RDW. I think the cost of modern decks does need to be generically a little lower so people can enter the format. Every time WOTC do MM more players come into the game so it is a step in the right direction. It's just not a big enough step. They're not wholly wrong - just partially.
April 22, 2015 9:48 a.m.
vishnarg - that is a woeful misunderstanding of economics.
April 22, 2015 9:49 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
I think that too often people conflate compromise with not doing enough. As I've pointed out, there's a process by which WOTC has to handle this situation in order to benefit all parties involved. Arguing without a compelling reason that one party or another doesn't deserve to benefit is simply unfair (and typically also selfish). This process has been underway for a while now.
Don't forget that Modern is still very much a new format, and WOTC has to play a balancing act that wasn't nearly as complicated back when it was Standard or Legacy (or Extended, the awkward sibling that was later quietly removed from the family photos).
April 22, 2015 9:52 a.m.
Well sometimes compromise isn't doing enough for many people. Giving an extra single goyf to a few thousand people is not going to let them suddenly play tier 1 modern. It also is not likely to put them into the hands of the people that do want to play tier 1 modern. It's a peculiar situation really because reprinting something as a mythic in a set that's going to be given out as prizes and drafted does not actually do much to guarantee that a) the price decreases or b) that guys who really the card actually get one in boosters. Those two points are good markers of increasing access as you discussed before. Referring to the fact that price alone isn't important but also general access to the card.
It's a scatter gun approach that could in reality be a lot more targeted and well thought through. It's also not ridiculous that wizards could consider these reprints on a case by case basis. Goyf is $200 - that's pretty expensive. Twin is - $25. Its pricey but not absurd. It's clear that goyf needs a reprint MORE than twin needs a reprint. (this is just an example). So no one would be too alarmed if you bumped goyf down to a rare (it's not a broken card in drafting anyway) and bumped twin up to a mythic (because it's less in demand).
Even if you printed goyf as a rare you still only have like a 1 in 40 chance of opening a single one anyway. 40 boosters multiplied by $10 is $400. Statistically it's not going to suddenly make these boosters gold dust, and it's not going to make it such that everyone opens one. In fact you're only averagely likely to get one every two boxes. As it stands at mythic the real cost per goyf opening on average is somewhere around $1200 boosters worth. The compomise they are making, I am arguing, is not doing enough to address things when mathematically you can work out that there are better ways of doing things that also wouldn't completely crash the card.
April 22, 2015 10:03 a.m.
Poor people who want support are just jealous of the rich. Rich people who care about poor people are just champagne socialists right. Capitalism is the way forward etc. Fun is a zero sum game.
/sarcasm.
April 22, 2015 10:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
That's a fair enough argument. The numbers side of things interests me because it's better equipped to make market predictions.
Then again, players voice their opinions rather loudly, and I wonder how much of a factor the ongoing debate is in making calls like this. I'd like to think some of the arguments are at least considered.
April 22, 2015 10:07 a.m.
I honestly don't think Wizards are that good at economics.
No, that's not true actually. They're fantastic at turning profit, but not very good at compromising between really making a difference for the guy that can't afford to play the game and still turning a decent profit at the end of the day.
Would printing goyf at rare be a bad idea for them? Yes of course it would. It means they make less money for MM3 when they do that in a few years time. They like doing slow release because it builds hype, doesn't ACTUALLY save us (the players) a ton of money when they print what we need at mythic, and it allows them to keep doing it every few years without us losing interest.
It's a very clever strategy.
April 22, 2015 10:13 a.m.
Okay, so I have a fruit loop. It's a very rare fruit loop, $200, so lots of people want it. 100 people want to bid for my fruit loop. That's a big supply demand deficit, so the fruit loop costs more than its worth. Then, a magical wizard comes along and drops 2 more fruit loops into the hands of some random bidders. These people no longer want a fruit loop, and are selling theirs! The demand goes down, the supply goes up, even if it's very small.
Playing magic is an investment. There's risk. Every pack is literally a lottery ticket. If you don't want to lose money, don't play the game. Spend your money intelligently and don't buy goyfs because you want to - like Putrefy said, if you don't have them, build a different modern deck.
April 22, 2015 10:22 a.m.
Its ironic how you said "there's risk" and yet you seem to ignore the fact that risk applies to you as an investor as well. D'OH! This is how investment works in the real world too. If I have some oil and suddenly someone else starts selling oil then I lose out. If I have a shop and someone else opens a new shop then I lose out. Risk in a commercial market does not only apply to those bidding for services (ie. the guys that open packs) but it also applies to those with the product already (ie. the investors like you and me). You have to accept that your investment should not and IS NOT protected. THAT IS HOW RISK WORKS AND YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING THAT.
April 22, 2015 10:30 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #37
I've never seen someone use Froot Loops to establish himself as a credible economist.
April 22, 2015 10:30 a.m.
No, I do understand that. Every time I buy something I understand and weigh the risk involved. I'm not an idiot, I know that if everybody stops playing modern, I lose a few thousands of dollars. Where do you get off saying I don't understand how a basic investment works?
April 22, 2015 10:32 a.m.
Because what you missed in the fruit loop analogy is that the fruit loop factory is completely within their right to start producing more fruit loops at any given time. They might want to do this because, you know, people want to buy fruit loops. You do not have any right to demand they do not produce more fruit loops.
April 22, 2015 10:34 a.m.
The fruit loop factory might think, "HEY! Lots of people are getting rich selling a product that we made. Maybe we should make some more so that we can turn a greater profit". Then it's in the best interests of the fruit loop factory to start producing lots and lots of the fruit loop you have because when you sell your fruit loop they make no money, but when they sell their own they make lots of money.
April 22, 2015 10:39 a.m.
I'm not demanding anything - I don't think you understand at all my analogy. The company will produce fruit loops at a rate that keeps the price stable to maximize their profits. YOU are the one who has no right to demand the company produces more or less fruit loops than they please. They continue producing fruit loops to make money and to keep the fruit loop fans happy.
April 22, 2015 10:40 a.m.
Well then your analogy fails because at the moment the fruit loop factory is making absolutely no fruit loops for anyone.
I am pointing out, and so are many other people, we would love to buy more fruit loops and they would make an awful lot of money if they did make more. It would be silly of them not to. Your argument is that they should not because you like having special fruit loops. My argument makes more economic sense for the factory than yours does.
The analogy also breaks down because the factory supports a game based around fruit loops, but they are not making enough fruit loops for people to play the game. They are therefore losing sponsorship and crowd money because they cannot make the fruit loop competitions as large as they potentially could. If the fruit loop factory were trying to support a game it would be in their best interests due to tournament fees etc that they enable everyone to play the fruit loop game.
But this is why the fruit loop analogy does not work.
April 22, 2015 10:51 a.m.
So, modern masters doesn't enable everyone to play the fruit loop game? Isn't that why people flock to prerelease events - to get that big ticket mythic everybody wants? That's how Wizards makes their money: selling packs, not singles. Keeping fruit loops mythic allows them to continue making modern masters sets with a pricey big ticket fruit loop that everybody wants.
April 22, 2015 10:55 a.m.
Fruit loop masters allows people to play one type of fruit loop game where you get random fruit loops but not a type where you put together your bowl of fruit loops yourself. There is a lot of money to be made in both types of fruit loop game. Allowing people to construct the bowls they want wouldn't actually be a bad thing because the fruit loop factory also receive entry fees for the 'construct your own bowl' type competitions, and it wouldn't mean that people would stop playing the game where you receive random fruit loops either. Its a win-win for the fruit loop factory.
Also that's a very, very interesting question. What if the fruit loop factory DID allow you to buy the fruit loop you wanted. What then?
April 22, 2015 11 a.m.
Then the fruit loop factory would undercut the local fruit loop game stores and drive them out of businesd, which would ultimately decrease sales and turn away players from their fruit loop venues. It would be bad.
April 22, 2015 11:06 a.m.
There's a reason they sell fruit loops by the box and not by the loop. There have to be bad, worthless fruit loops for there to be expensive rare fruit loops.
April 22, 2015 11:10 a.m.
Why would it ultimately decrease sales if all players could buy direct from the fruit loop factory? Surely the fruit loop eaters would still buy the same number of fruit loops, but theyd give their business to the factory instead of the third party fruit loop salesmen. That doesn't actually mean that fewer people are buying fruit loops.
Also the fruit loop venues could still sell their own fruit loops. The factory sells that great red one for $50. The shops buy it in for $45 and sell it also at $50. We would then have a fruit loop guide price or directory, but it wouldn't stop the other guys buying in fruit loops at commercial prices and selling them for profit. What IT WOULD stop is a particular shop selling the red fruit loop for $60. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
April 22, 2015 11:15 a.m.
The red one can still be expensive even if the fruit loop factory prints billions of them because the fruit loop factory would only sell the red one for a lot of money. Buyers would not then sell the red one for less even though everyone has one because they do not want to make a loss. This is called buyer memory and is a big factor in trade. You can saturate a market with an expensive product and it doesn't always devalue.
ChiefBell says... #1
My phone just typos all over the place.
April 19, 2015 7:07 p.m.