Vexing Devil in Burn
Legacy forum
Posted on Nov. 27, 2013, 11:04 p.m. by Aerokid
I was kicking around the idea of turning my "just for funsies" burn deck into a legacy deck. I have most of the mandatories, but I also have a set of Vexing Devil that I'm thinking about throwing in.
He seems to get a lot of hate on the interwebs because your opponent will choose whatever option is better for them. But really, in a burn deck, how can 4 damage for R be bad? And if he sticks, that's good too. They have removal? Cool. removal kills all my other creatures too, and they're more expensive than the devil.
Am I just crazy?
Tradeylouish says... #3
The reason the choice is bad is because in a number of situations, letting him resolve as a creature can advantage your opponent a lot. One example is if your opponent is holding a boardwipe like Supreme Verdict , and they can play it on their turn. Another is when you're in the lategame and your opponent can win if you don't kill them immediately, and he won't have any impact if he resolves as a creature.
4 damage for 1 mana is still strong in the early game (although you'd rather be dropping a Goblin Guide turn 1), so he's still worth considering.
November 27, 2013 11:14 p.m.
Tradeylouish Like I said, "dies to removal" isn't a valid point. Though it's true he's most likely a dud later in the game. Ideally I can blitz my opponent out before the game goes late. I guess the question is is it worth it to run him for those situations where he pops up early enough to do some serious damage?
Colten_Lee Most cards are legal in Legacy. If you aren't sure, check Gatherer.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/
November 27, 2013 11:20 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #5
Vexing Devil is quite a bit worse in many Legacy matchups than he ever was in Standard. A lot of decks have 1-drop removal spells. Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are both highly played cards. Your opponent can easily let him stay on the field and then just kill him off before he does damage.
November 28, 2013 12:32 a.m.
November 28, 2013 12:54 a.m.
Because why leave any game to that variance, when in addition to normal burn staples you get to run sweet legacy burn cards like Fireblast , Chain Lightning , Flame Rift , Chain Lightning , Sulfuric Vortex and good old Price of Progress . Finding your 20 damage is not an issue in legacy.
November 28, 2013 2:02 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #8
@NobodyPicksBulbasaur So? If they do, then that's a removal spell that doesn't kill a Goblin Guide /Figure of Destiny /Hellspark Elemental /Grim Lavamancer etc. I never quite got that argument.
November 28, 2013 3:56 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #9
Although I do understand that you'd rather be dropping cards like that turn 1/2 instead of Vexing Devil .
November 28, 2013 3:57 a.m.
Wait your initial post said 'just for funsies burn deck' and you keep posting about all the creatures in it?
Is this it?
A lot of legacy burn decks really don't depend on many creatures and that's exactly why Vexing Devil isn't fantastic. The removal they 'waste' on the devil isn't (or usually isn't) going to go on anything else anyway. Similarly Browbeat isn't great either but that's a separate issue. There are tons of competitive magic articles written about this subject and the reality is that letting the opponent choose what they want is never good for you. Using a 1-drop burn spell on a 1-drop creature is absolutely fine as far as the opponent is concerned. That's a 1-for-1 and the game is equal at that point. But you've missed out on 4 damage. Their deck is (probably) built to last for a load of turns. Yours is built to win as quickly as possible and you just wasted T1.
November 28, 2013 5:52 a.m.
ChiefBell that was an earlier incarnation of the deck. I've since removed all black and discard effects and shifted solely to burn. I've already removed browbeat because hand fillers and 5 damage are nice, but not for 3 when you should be about to kill your opponent.
The thing is that I do run other creatures, and any removal used on my VD is removal that isn't hitting my Figure of Destiny or Grim Lavamancer (if i decide to keep them). They both can bring more damage than the 4 from the devil.
Right now my creature list is 3x Figure of Destiny , 3x Hellspark Elemental , 4x Vexing Devil , 3x Grim Lavamancer and 3x Keldon Marauders
So if my 1 drop VD gets nailed with STP, it will bother me less than if it hit nearly any other creature in my deck.
November 28, 2013 9:57 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur Yeah yeah, dies to removal, got it.
Also see above.
November 28, 2013 9:59 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #13
Not "Dies to Removal", but rather "Dies to removal before it gets damage in", which is the entire point of burn.
Goblin Guide and Hellspark Elemental both have haste, which helps ensure that damage gets through. Grim Lavamancer just provides way too much value over a game to not include.
Never quite understood why people love Figure of Destiny so much.
November 28, 2013 10:37 a.m.
Wizard of the Damned says... #14
I say you might as well. A 1CMC drop that either right out hits for 4 or can beat? I think its worth considering. yes, Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt run rampant but hell, when does STP not get goyf? Lightning Bolt even stands a decent chance at removing him so the removal portion of the argument is not relevant unless your opponent is on the play while you're on the draw. at that point, Goblin Guide could even be considered crap since it can be removed just as easy with bolt or STP. I look at it this way, if a possible 4/5 (or 5/6 at max I think?) for 2CMC such as goyf can always be argued to use to a degree, then a 4/3 for 1CMC is gravy, especially for RDW. The Wizard has spoken
November 28, 2013 12:07 p.m.
Fair enough, but STP is still instant, meaning even the hasters can get nailed.
As for FoD, yeah, he never really gets higher than 2/2 when I playtest. I figure he's good in the event that you stall out, but early game he's not fantastic.
November 28, 2013 12:09 p.m.
Hes worked for me unless there is somebody playing Swords to Plowshares
my legacy burn isnt bad you just need to have a sideboard to destroy artifacts and prevent lifegain for sure
November 28, 2013 12:14 p.m.
I run Mono Red Legacy and I will not use Vexing Devil. Its good in the best case scenario you describe, a turn one burn for 4. But what happens if you draw 2 VD, or you draw one on Turn two? At that point, he usually becomes a creature, who cant attack until turn three, where he dies to a flipped Delver, or a Tarmagoyf, or worst case scenario a Show and Tell Griselbrand. Even if it doesn't die, it will probably be chump blocked with an unflipped delver or something, so you gain card advantage without hitting their life, and life burn is all that matters 95% of the time with this deck
Red Deck Wins is all about speed and lifeburn, and this card rarely helps with either. Goblin Guide has haste, which means he can sneak past a tapped Tarmogyf/Delver/Mongoose, and he shows you what your opponent is drawing, which helps you get your bombs like Price of Progress off. Even a Spark Elemental will be more helpful to you in most cases, using haste and trample to smack them down enough for a Fireblast finish.
The above is mostly my personal opinion, but at the same time, look for recent top ranking Red Deck Wins legacy decks. Youll see way more Goblin Guides and even Spark Elementals then youll see Vexing Devils, and for a reason.
December 1, 2013 1:01 a.m.
VaultTechy says... #18
There's no real downside to Vexing Devil if you're on the play. If they choose to bomb it, you dealt 4 direct, if they let it resolve and DON'T have an answer on their next turn, you still deal 4 direct. If they DO have an answer they waste their first turn mana, and if they Swords to Plowshares it, you gain 4 life, which might not be relevant to burn, but still, for one mana you've done quite a bit. But like a lot of people said, past the intro turns it's not a very useful card...
December 1, 2013 4:33 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #19
There is a downside to the card. It has already been spelled out.
December 2, 2013 10:12 a.m.
Drain01 you make very good points, but the same can be said for Keldon Marauders , and they're in very many legacy burn decks. Best case scenario, they're 5 for 2 (but not before T3), worst case 2 for 2, and like you say, the likelihood of them getting chumped or stomped by a goyf is pretty high. Is that guaranteed 2 maybe 5 really that good?
December 3, 2013 12:41 p.m.
I personally like Vexing Devil for the following reasons
If they wrath after you play it they were probably going to wrath soon anyway. If it eats removal then that's not hitting one of your other creatures. Also, everyone's saying there are better things to do on turn one that guarantee damage, but you can play a hasty creature on turn one, then Vexing Devil and another hasty guy on turn two.
What happens then is you get guaranteed damage from the hasty guys, and a lot of damage potential with a 4/3 sitting on the board turn two. Alternatively they take 4 to the face and that's 20% of the're life total for 1 mana. Not bad.
Colten_Lee says... #2
I am relatively new to Magic and i was wondering if you would be able to answer for me, what exactly is legal in Legacy??
November 27, 2013 11:13 p.m.