Can there be lands that are parallel to basic lands, but also are helpful to dual color decks?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 21, 2012, 6:46 p.m. by MagicalHacker
The other day I thought about the power of dual-color lands in standard... "At first they might have a disadvantage, but after the first turn, they are way better than basic lands... What if there were land cards that would help out dual color decks with out being broken, or having an 'enters the battefield tapped if' ability..."
An example of that advantage is "T: Add one B or one U mana to your mana pool.", because then it is an island with an extra ability. (or swamp with an extra ability, you get the idea.) So here is my best attempt at creating parallel, but not over powered, "basic" lands. WHAT DO YOU THINK? :)
(name) Jungles of the Simic Combine
(type) Land - Forest Island
(text) T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T, Tap an untapped forest you control: Add 1G to your mana pool.
T, Tap an untapped island you control: Add 1U to your mana pool.
T, Tap an untapped land called "Jungles of the Simic Combine": Add GU to your mana pool.
A deck can have any number of cards named Jungles of the Simic Combine.
The idea I had was that the land LITERALLY adds one half mana of blue and one half mana of green, which I will refer to as one blue/green mana. By itself, it does not created any colored mana (because all spells that ask for blue or green colored mana ask for one whole mana that is entirely either blue or green), but with another land, it can. (thats why it has two specific land types and the second and third ability. For example, if you have one blue/green mana and one green/red mana--which could have come from a green/red land-- you can create one green and one blue/red mana. does that make sense?)
I also put that last ability so that it could function like basic land cards without being basic land cards.
Also, I have ideas for the names of the other cards:
Jungles of the Simic Combine, Caves of the Cult of Rakdos, Beaches of the Azorius Senate, Valleys of the Gruul Clans, Canyons of the Izzet League, Deserts of the Orzhov Syndicate, Deltas of the House Dimir, Fields of the Selesnya Conclave, Everglades of the Golgari Swarm, and Hills of the Boros Legion.
Over-powered? Under-powered? What do you think?
Overall I like your thinking on it but I do think it is kinda overpowered. Like ok you are running a green and blue deck and all of your lands are the jungles. Ok so if I play one each turn then on turn 3 I can play a six drop on turn three. Like what? Now imagine if you threw creature mana ramp in there you could probably play a 10 drop on turn 3 and possibly a 16 drop on turn 4. Way too overpowered. I do like your idea of how it produces half and half though. So you could it if you could only run 4 in a deck.
January 21, 2012 8:59 p.m.
So taping it and a forest would give you the 1G anyways. Could it be;Tap, tap an untapped forest you control; add 1U to your mana pool?
January 21, 2012 9 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #5
Unfortunately, it is overpowered. The problem is that the reason dual colored lands are so powerful is that they can give you more access to all of the colors in your deck without having to add more lands to ensure you'll have the mana. If you put a deck together that has 2 colors and ALL of the lands are these, then on turn 2 you have both colors guaranteed. Then by turn 4 you have 2 of each. The only drawback is if you run 3 colors and if you happen to have a one drop that requires a certain color. Both situations would be easily remedied making multi colored decks VERY easy to build.
@sparkman I don't think you quite got the concept there. You have to tap 2 jungles in order to get 2 mana. So turn 3 you would have GU and 1 colorless. Not
January 21, 2012 9:13 p.m.
Since they are not basic lands, you could Tome Scour or Dream Twist or Thought Scour one of them into the graveyard on turn 1 and then play Surgical Extraction and proceed to win the game. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon would turn these all to mountains. There are also cards like Anathemancer, Back to Basics, Cornered Market, Destructive Flow, and Primal Order.
Basically, the reason basic lands are basic is because it gives them that extra protection that cause them to not be strictly worse than other land cards. I would never run more than 4 of a nonbasic land just because of it they are so vulnerable.
However, a "standard" format where those lands exists and a bunch of cards that hose nonbasic lands do not exist would initially seem broken, but as long as everybody has them and the sets are built around it, it would probably be fair. I doubt those cards would be legal outside of that standard environment. It would change the game more than Phyrexian mana, infect, and our current version of powercreep have changed the game.
January 21, 2012 10:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Lands which have basic land types inherently have the mana abilities of those basic land types. For example, your mock land would also have the ability "T: Add G or U to your mana pool."
So really, the extra effects are asking you to tap two Forests to get 1G instead of GG, two Islands to get 1U instead of UU, and the last ability is redundant because you could individually tap your lands for these colors anyway.
January 21, 2012 11:53 p.m.
Yeah I just realized my whole comment doesn't make sense. Sorry about that. Ignore completely the second comment.
January 22, 2012 12:02 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #9
MagnorCriol, sorry about that.. ill post it right next time! and I feel its a bit complicated too. also, i wanted shorter names, but a lot of them were already taken... i guess the "of the..." part could be taken out, but since the next block is ravnica anyways, i thought I could work with that.
sparkman, each land produces only one mana. if you could only put 4 of these in a deck, it would lead to getting color screwed (if you think about it, you need at least two of them to get one of each color... you need them to be pretty common...) and its ok, i kinda figured you might have misread my question. dw bout it dude. :)
xo2, i had put those abilities so that they could be played with other parallel versions of this card. for example if you had another card similar to this except it was green and red instead of green and blue, it would also be a forest, but if you tap them separately they would only give you 2. but in reality since you can add the two halves of green, you should get 1G instead.
rckclimber777, i don't see why you say its over-powered. even in two-colored decks, any colored one-drop can't come out first turn. and dual color decks are more balanced but less focused than mono-colored decks. why do you say that these are over-powered?
sarpnasty, that's a good point, I didn't think about that. if i added "basic" to the type, would that fix that problem? and if they were basic land cards, would you run more than just four in a dual-color deck?
Epochalyptik, i had put those abilities so that they could be played with other parallel versions of this card. for example, if you had another card similar to this except it was green and red instead of green and blue, it would also be a forest, but if you tap them separately they would only give you 2. but in reality since you can add the two halves of green, you should get 1G instead. if it makes sense to just have decks full of these cards by themselves and not with other cards, then in theory you could take out those two abilities...
January 22, 2012 1:02 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #10
EDIT: THIS IS THE NEW IDEA FOR THESE CARDS!
(name) Simic Jungles
(type) Basic Land - Forest Island
(text) T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T, Tap an untapped forest you control: Add 1G to your mana pool.
T, Tap an untapped island you control: Add 1U to your mana pool.
T, Tap an untapped land called "Simic Jungles": Add GU to your mana pool.
New names for the other cards:
Simic Jungles, Rakdos Caves, Azorius Beaches, Gruul Valleys, Izzet Canyons, Orzhov Deserts, Dimir Deltas, Selesnya Fields, Golgari Everglades, and Boros Hills.
January 22, 2012 1:07 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
I don't see how you would get any ramp or extra utility from this. You're still getting 2 mana from 2 lands, and you're making it a Karoo effect rather than full color.
January 22, 2012 1:08 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
I also wouldn't make these lands basic, since basic lands enjoy a certain protection and utility which only generic lands should have. Imagine finding these with Cultivate or having them survive a Ruination. It doesn't really make sense, as basic implies exactly that - nothing fancy or out of the ordinary.
January 22, 2012 1:12 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #13
Epochalyptik, I just wanted to create lands that are parallel versions of basic lands in dual-color decks. they're not supposed to be more powerful than basic lands, just more useful in multi-decks. (and cards like Karoo benefit other cards with landfall. two land cards, three triggers.) and let me explain a little bit more about these cards.
say you ran 20 of the simic jungles in a blue green deck.
turn one: play a simic jungle. (you could tap for 1)
turn two: play another. (you could tap for GU)
turn three: play another. (you could tap for 1GU)
turn four: play another. (you could tap for GGUU)
and so on...
this was the best idea i could think of when it came to creating a card that would benefit a dual color deck more than regular basic lands while remaining (as much as possible) a parallel version of them.
January 22, 2012 1:16 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
You're essentially making another Tropical Island. The extra abilities of Simic Jungle don't do anything apart from the inherent mana abilities granted by its land types. So having 4 Simic Jungles out is no different from having 4 Trops out or Hinterland Harbors, etc.
Is there something you wanted the abilities to do that I'm not getting?
January 22, 2012 1:26 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #15
Epochalyptik, sarpnasty had mentioned earlier a problem with having them be nonbasic. he said, "Since they are not basic lands, you could Tome Scour or Dream Twist or Thought Scour one of them into the graveyard on turn 1 and then play Surgical Extraction and proceed to win the game. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon would turn these all to mountains. There are also cards like Anathemancer, Back to Basics, Cornered Market, Destructive Flow, and Primal Order."
and deep down, they're actually really boring. if it were ok with the rules, I would have just made it "Tap: add one half blue mana and one half green mana to your mana pool." however, rule 107.1 states that all numbers in magic must be integers. the card Mons's Goblin Waiters adds half red mana to your mana pool, but its from unhinged.
January 22, 2012 1:28 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #16
Epochalyptik, with cards like Hinterland Harbor and Tropical Island, they are basically like a forest with island's ability (plus its type or minus the forest's type). those have a LOT more power than a basic land. even though hinterland can come into play tapped, after that point its almost the same as Tropical Island. i just wanted these cards to be parallel to basic lands, you know?
the 2nd and 3rd abilities are solely for the interaction between this card and other cards that add a "common-colored half mana". for example, lets say you have izzet canyons and boros hills out. izzet canyons taps for half blue and half red, and boros hills taps for half white and half red. well, then that means you have one whole red mana and one half white and one half blue. you see what im saying? i feel like its tough to explain...
January 22, 2012 1:37 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
This is the rule I was getting at:
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words "basic land type," it's referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability "T: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool," even if the text box doesn't actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, [mana symbol] is W; for Islands, U; for Swamps, B; for Mountains, R; and for Forests, G. See rule 107.4a. Also see rule 605, "Mana Abilities."
By giving your lands basic land types, you're completely overshadowing their other abilities and rendering those abilities redundant/underpowered. Your Simic Jungle comes in untapped and can tap for U or G regardless of what other lands you control... Hence the Tropical Island similarity.
January 22, 2012 1:49 a.m.
rckclimber777 says... #18
Here is why I say it is overpowered. First of all, mono-colored decks are extremely limited in their abilities and can be completely shut down by many different cards. Dual-colored decks are far more effective hence the need for wide mana bases that have both colors. With a mana base that has only these in it, your dual-colored deck has no need of the current dual lands. My point also was that the only drawback of these lands would be that you couldn't play a colored one drop on turn 1 whereas in current dual colored decks you can of course drop a colored one drop on turn 1 whether with a basic land that matches the color or a scars land/fetch land.
With these cards you wouldn't have to create an effective mana base which imo would make them far overpowered. When running a dual colored deck there should be a drawback for running two colors. Figuring out a mana base that works is one of the hardest things to do in a multicolored deck. As it should be. Sorry, but I stay by my opinion that these would be way overpowered.
January 22, 2012 1:51 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #19
Epochalyptik, hmm i see... what if somehow you could make it be a basic land, without having the land subtypes...there would be a lot of funky stuff going on but it would fix the problem... so its type would be basic land and its text would be "T, add one half (first color) and one half (second color) to your mana pool." like i said, it would be really strange...
rckclimber777 also, you gotta remember that dual color decks aren't as focused as mono-color decks. red is pretty much about burning the opponent and in red/blue decks, there isnt as much burn as there is in a mono-red deck. dual color decks are, in a way, more defensive. its harder to shut down, but it takes longer for its strategy to work. also, these cards wouldnt be amazing in dual color decks, they would just be ok. in fact, imo a current standard dual-color land is more powerful than this card. you know?
January 22, 2012 2:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
Well, with the previous error of having basic land types, this land was broken good in multi-colored decks. Also, when you allow players to run any number of a filter/dual land in a deck, it does take some of the challenge out of managing the color balance.
January 22, 2012 2:12 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #21
Epochalyptik, even with these cards, the mana base is still worse than in mono-colored decks. if you were to have 4 of the simic jungles and 3 green cards in your opening hand, it wouldn't be that amazing... it takes out some of the challenge, but not all of it.
if they allowed these lands to add two halves of mana, and allowed them to be basic lands without any subtypes, would there be anymore problems (too much or too little relative efficiency)?
January 22, 2012 2:21 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
I don't really know what you're getting at with the halves of mana. It doesn't really accomplish anything, since all payments require integers of mana. Is this mostly something you wanted to do for flavor?
January 22, 2012 2:33 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #23
Epochalyptik, with the halves of mana, i am trying to get lands to be halfway between two basic lands. and depends what you mean. did i try this out because i wanted to do something new? yea. did i do this to make a funny card? no. but what do you think, if you were to create a land card that would not be more powerful than a basic land card, but would be more useful in a dual-color deck, what would it look like?
January 22, 2012 3 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Well, when you say it has to be no more powerful than a basic land card, what exactly do you mean? That might be too limiting a constraint for your second goal to be achieved...
Also, do you want the land to function independently or can/should it rely on other lands of the same/another type?
January 22, 2012 3:03 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #25
Epochalyptik, basically, anything that has an "or" in it. if it gives an option, then its already more powerful than a basic land card. by the way, that reminds me of this card which might be what can do the trick: River of Tears
thats totally up to you. I made it so that it relies on other similar cards, but that was because it was the concept that came to my mind.
Now that i think about it, what about this:
Simic Jungle
Land
At the beginning of every upkeep, flip a coin. If it's heads, Simic Jungle is a forest until end of turn. Otherwise, Simic Jungle is an island until end of turn.
Its like a chance, you know?
January 22, 2012 3:11 a.m.
From what I gather, he wants to make a set of dual lands that make half mana in each of it's colors. The rules for the lands would be something like this:
***I'm going to use capital letters to represent whole mana and lowercase letters to represent "half mana"
Mana can only be spent as an integer amount.
Half mana of the same color produces one whole mana of that color. Example: b+b=B
Half mana of that are different colors produce colorless mana. Example: u+r=1
Half mana in that is generated combines in the mana pool as a State-Based action. Half mana combines in the following steps.
1) Half mana of the same color is paired with another half mana of the same color. These are called "Colored Pairs"
2) The remaining half mana will be paired with mana of a different color. These pairs are called "Colorless Pairs"
3) Each colored pair will produce one mana of it's pair color while each colorless pair will produce one colorless mana.
Example: Lands a player controls produces r, r, r, b, u, g, g, b, w, w, w, g. First, colored pairs are created, which are (r,r), (g,g), (w,w), (b,b). Next colorless pairs are created, which are (r,u) and (w,g). This will add 2WBRG to the mana pool.
Also something to note with this, because half mana will be added in pairs, and there are only 5 colors of mana, the most colorless mana that can be produced in any combination is 2.
@mstancea I hope this is what you were trying to get across. Looking at the rules this way, I think these lands might be interesting.
January 22, 2012 10:26 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #27
sarpnasty, exactly! btw i like the examples you put in, but i think that two different halves shouldnt form colorless mana. most of the time, that will be the case, because the only think you can use r/u mana for would be in generic costs. however, when you have cards with the sunburst ability, it actually matters. you see what i mean? other than that, your descriptions are EXACTLY what i was talking about! :D and i really like your idea for uppercase/lowercase to refer to whole or half mana.
although, since it seems sort of awkward with all the halves, i thought of a new idea. let me know what you think compared to the old idea and such:
(name) Simic Jungle
(type) Basic Land
(text) When Simic Jungle enters the battlefield and at the beginning of every upkeep, flip a coin. If it is heads, Simic Jungle becomes a forest until end of turn. Otherwise, Simic Jungle becomes an island until end of turn.
eh, pretty neat?
January 22, 2012 3:50 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
Having half-mana combine as an SBA isn't a good idea. Mana abilities shouldn't rely on SBAs since they are instantaneous, don't rely on the stack, and must sometimes be activated during the resolution of a spell or ability.
January 22, 2012 4:05 p.m.
@Epochalyptik i know what you mean. Instead of happening as a SBA it should happen as the mana ability resolves. I don't know the details of mana abilities, but i just didn't want the mana abilities to use the stack. i was going for instantaneous.
I disagree about half mana counting as colors for sunburst. It would break what sunburst was trying to do and instead you could get Sunburst 5 with only 3 lands. I like the lands being less effective as you try to run more colors in your deck. They are strictly worse than basic lands in mono-colored decks. They are a lot better in two color decks, but then they become less better as the deck adds more colors to the point that in a 3 color deck that relies heavily on green, it might be better to play some forests instead of these "half mana" duals.
January 22, 2012 7:21 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #30
Epochalyptik, i agree, but maybe not for the same reason... lol
sarpnasty, well they already have a ruling on colored half mana and that it does affect sunburst in that way... when you have cards like Mons's Goblin Waiters, Cheap Ass, and Little Girl, its possible to get half of any color, and those do affect sunburst separately.
MagnorCriol says... #2
This isn't a Q&A topic; that's reserved for rules questions. Moving this to the general forums.
It's an interesting idea, and has lots of depth - but honestly I think it's overcomplicating it. There's a certain level at which the complexity on a card outwheighs its value, no matter how resonant the flavor it captures is.
Still, it's not a bad idea, and certainly treads into interesting territory. I think you'd have to choose simpler names for them if you're going to have them be as common as "any number in a deck".
January 21, 2012 7:03 p.m.