Why Has this Been Happening Recently (read for full question)?
General forum
Posted on Aug. 25, 2015, 10:32 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
In the past, effects that drain life from all opponents, such as Syphon Soul, Exsanguinate, Debt to the Deathless, or Kokusho, the Evening Star, grant their controller an amount of life that increases with each opponent, which makes sense, to me.
However, recently, WotC printed two cards, Siege Rhino and Palace Siege, that drain life from all opponents but grant their controller a fixed amount of lfie that does not increase with the number of opponents.
I do not like that, at all, since those effects do not become more powerful with the number of opponents that one has, so I wish to ask several questions.
First, why did WotC do that? Did they decide that mass-life drain effects are too powerful if they scale up with the number of opponents? Second, will they return to the original model, or is the new model now the normal model for such effects from now on?
The new form does not make sense, and I shall use a non-M:tG-related example to explain how that is so: if I was in a group that included three other people, and I took one dollar in cash from each of them, I would have three dollars, not one dollar. Similarly, if I drained 3 life from each opponent (treating an abstract concept such as life as if it were a tangible item), I should gain 9 life, not 3; were does the remaining 6 life go? How does that make any sense?
What does everyone else say about this?
trollslayer says... #3
possibly because you are hurting the opponent. with some of those cards namely cough cough... Debt to the Deathless, is because they have a debt. with Palace Siege is just dragons attack you. they don't steal your life force, they just kill you. also, this argument and thread is invalid, mainly because you apparently need to reread the cards, because the two cards that you did list, do gain you life.
August 25, 2015 10:44 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #4
Not really true. Gray Merchant of Asphodel is an example that hits every one. And I think that it's mostly because the difference is minimal on most cards.
August 25, 2015 10:45 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #5
Derpling Supreme: I did not have a control panel available to create links to those cards when I made my initial post, and I have not quite yet memorized the tags that are needed for such links, so I hope that you can forgive me for not doing so, and I expect that I shall memorize the tags very soon.
As for the main subject, if I ever build a black/white/green EDH deck (which is very likely, considering that I have already built decks for all five shard combinations and am currently building decks for three of the wedge combinations), I shall definitely put Siege Rhino in it, as that card is too good to not use, but otherwise I shall definitely favor effects that increase with the number of opponents, such as DttD.
August 25, 2015 10:52 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #6
To tag a card, simply put double square brackets around a card
[ [ siege rhino ] ] without spaces becomes Siege Rhino
August 25, 2015 11:28 p.m.
Essnetially, cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel scale up largely in Commander. This means that while Gary might drain for 5 in a 1-on-1 game, in a 4 player game Gary drains each player for 5 and you gain 15. That's a HUGE life swing. So, in order to make the cards behave the same in multiplayer as in 1-on-1 play, WotC has gone with the wordings like Siege Rhino and Palace Siege.
August 25, 2015 11:46 p.m.
Yeah the answer here is simply that wizards don't like printing cards that are good in 1v1 and even better in commander, not to say they don't print cards that scale, just only cards that will only every be slight value, not super mega value (EG: Subversion, Unnerve)
August 26, 2015 1:17 a.m.
While I see you're point, your example isn't relevant to magic. The game is designed with overall playability in mind, not logic referencing real world interactions (it's simply nice when they line up, in terms of the games 'flavour')
Magic is primarily designed as a 1v1 game, and functions best in this environment. Multiplayer EDH is basically the Mario Kart of magic - it's just goofing around. It's great for EDH or kitchen table players when the wording of some cards makes them overwhelmingly over powered compared to 1v1 scenarios. But from a design perspective, these are terrible for the game (though EDH's higher life total compensates for this to some degree). Any Game function best when It is fair - Picking up 20 life for 5cmc when playing a Gray Merchant of Asphodel is not fair. 20 life would cost you 21cmc (ie Stream of Life) and that doesn't account for the body to block with.
August 26, 2015 10:05 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #10
It's just balance. Siege Rhino is good enough without gaining a ton of life at the kitchen table. With Rhino we can even justify it in terms of flavor. Look at the flavor text on it...
Your opponents aren't losing life because you're draining it, they're losing it because they and their forces are terrified of having a huge, pissed-off ungulate charging them. You can it from the adrenaline rush of riding said ungulate.
That's badass.
August 26, 2015 1 p.m.
trollslayer says... #12
Ok, I'm lost now. What are we discussing and what is the problem? For siege rhino and palace, they both say each, not target. So I'm confused.
August 26, 2015 7:47 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #13
In the case of Siege Rhino, I can understand Comrade Jim's point, but Shadows of the Past really should scale up, being mono-black and clearly representing life being drained from all opponents.
I will have no problem with scaling effects having a higher mana cost, as long as they still exist; otherwise, I shall be very displeased with WotC, and will definitely find a way to communicate that displeasure to them (politely, of course).
August 26, 2015 8:44 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #14
The rules do not always mirror what would be logical in flavor. Ever thought about what happens when you Flicker a Liliana, Defiant Necromancer Flip? Whoops, sorry, your spark is gone. You're also a sweet innocent healer again. Makes no freaking sense in terms of flavor.
Personally, I think that if damage dealt to every player comes with life gain, it should be scaling instead of fixed, because everybody will start targeting you if such a card is played.
But I don't think those effects need to be on the same card. In addition, black cards having bigger lifegain than white somehow breaks the wheel, even if it's drained.
In any case, you can still use the old cards. There are also cards like Soulfire Grand Master or Whip of Erebos that give all your creatures or spells lifelink. Lifelink always scales.
It's about the amount of life gain not scaling with the damage. Many old effects would deal damage to each opponent and heal you for the total sum of damage dealt, whereas the new effects heal you for a fixed amount regardless of how many opponents you have damaged.
August 27, 2015 5:07 a.m.
RussischerZar says... #15
Btw, there's one cornercase where this is actually a positive change: if your opponents all have Platinum Emperion, you still gain life with the new wording. :D
August 27, 2015 12:39 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #16
RussischerZar, that is a minimal benefit compared to the major drawback of the lifegain effect not scaling; can you imagine if Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless did not scale up? They would be nowhere near as amazingly-awesome as they are if that were the case for them.
August 27, 2015 9:53 p.m.
trollslayer says... #17
I love debt to the deathless, expecially in edh when you are playing four way and group hug had searched for all basic lands in your deck. That was fun. With doubled mana.
August 27, 2015 10:14 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #18
Is there any way to directly ask an employee of WotC about this, such as by Twitter? I would very much like to hear directly from them about this subject, if they shall respond.
September 8, 2015 9:33 p.m.
Shadows of the Past is a recent one that I really thought "should" grant more life-gain per player. I'm guessing the reason this has been happening lately is due to New World Order. Remember that WotC has been trying to keep things interesting while using less words on their cards. This reduces player fatigue, helps translation, and may even help reduce printing costs by a small margin (which is quite sizable when printing on a large scale).
September 9, 2015 12:57 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #20
Today, WotC (or someone else) revealed Drana's emissary, which again drains life from all opponents, but does not scale with the number of opponents drained; will there ever again be a mass-life drain spell that increases in effect when there are more opponents?
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #2
Syphon Soul Debt to the Deathless Exsanguinate Kokusho, the Evening Star Siege Rhino Palace Siege
please link cards.
August 25, 2015 10:39 p.m.