Mtg: suff about family and sexuality
The Blind Eternities forum
Posted on April 14, 2015, 2 p.m. by DERPLINGSUPREME
So, I got about ankle-deep into a conversation about MTG being a family game, or not, or whatever, so I moved it.
Let me fill you in. We were talking about how people have alternate art land of almost-naked anime girls. This turned into some stuff about sexuality in MTG, so may I ask:
how do you feel about this?
How do you feel about sexuality in MTG? do you think it should be a family game? How about MTG porn? okay or not? thought, issues, questions, Ideas?
asasinater13 says... #2
I didn't see an explanation in "I used to get uncomfortable by similar arts" I'm confused do you use the tokens because you're proud of yourself for not getting uncomfortable anymore? Because you want to make others feel your pain? Did you must grow to enjoy that type of art? What you're saying doesn't make sense and I'm asking you to explain so I understand what you're trying to say.
Vamp, I'm interested in what you've got to say but I'm not going to tag you in case you're unsubscribed and trying to just ignore this.
April 14, 2015 3:50 p.m.
The game itself is nothing bad as long as you explain it is fantasy and a game. Its labeled 13+, but I think thats more because of complexity rather than adult themes. The art is fine. Yes there are some...refined...women on some of them, but its not full on nudity or pornography. Its a fun game, much like Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon. The story, however, is full of more mature themes. Necromancy, love, death, war, moral, chaos, pure evil, etc. It can very well be a family game if treated right, say a DD:Anthologies up in a game closet, but it can also be very adult. Its the environment and how it is treated that define a game like Magic's maturity level and such. I understand the opposite too tho. For an extremely devout Catholic or Christian family, a Wrath of God or any of the Theros God cards could be seen as blasphamy. Even Archangel could be seen as blasphamy, and is it? I dont think so, but thats up to you. It is all enviornment and how your mind spins it.
April 14, 2015 3:50 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #4
What i have to say is both unpopular and seen as offensive
I had an entire thread to it long ago. I just don't care anymore. Like in a more literal sense
April 14, 2015 3:54 p.m.
hammerhead300 says... #5
Just in case you're not actually done here Ryotenchi, just let me say this: if someone were actually "using a bs reason to censor" you, then yes, getting angry might be a semi-reasonable response. That said, you were merely asked why you would show that off in public. At the risk of making you even more angry by being blunt with you, that's really not the sort of question that should anger you.
April 14, 2015 3:54 p.m.
asasinater13: I agree that sex doesn't quite fit into the world of magic, and I was talking about society in general, where my question actually has a context. However, its interesting how a card with an image of a man turned inside-out in blood and gore probably wouldn't raise any discussion while an image of a slightly too sexy character probably would. There is talk about being degrading, and for me its degrading to keep the female sexuality tabu.
"sexual images, however, are not an expected or necessary part of a game dedicated to conflict that tries to cater itself to a family environment". No, you are right. But these cards are altered art basic lands that are not catered to anyone but himself. Its not talk about wizards printing anime girls in bikinis on their basic lands, its about one guy altering his cards. There has been 2 threads on T/O already ranting about this. Come on!
April 14, 2015 4:04 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #7
I'm saying that bringing these alters is going against what magic is for, peons go to enjoy a conflict centered game. Some people who, for a variety of reasons, don't want sexual imagery around them. Children (who it is illegal to show explicit sexual content to), people of particular religions, people who it reminds of a past trauma. They aren't anticipating seeing sexual imagery when attending a magic event and disrespecting their expectation if an environment that they're comfortable with because you think amine tits are great at all hours of the day in all situations is rude, and I would argue wrong. adding sexual imagery to a game that doesn't have it then taking that addition to s public place with people of varying ages and backgrounds is unnecessary, rude, and not very considerate of others.
April 14, 2015 4:11 p.m.
Man, thank goodness this is America, and people have a right do this kind of stuff.
Can I ask how many of your guys' shops have FREQUENT tournament goers that are 12 and under?
Because I have none.
April 14, 2015 4:17 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #9
I have a decent amount of 8 th grade/freshman, so 14.
April 14, 2015 4:22 p.m.
asasinater13, first off, being concerned of people being reminded of past traumas? For an anime image? In a game filled with war imagery? :). Second, its a shame that we are having this discussion, and its a shame that you have that point of view. Its a shame it its illegal to show a human body to minors in your country, and its certainly a shame various religions puts shame on sexuality. I don't think that guy who printed cartoon girls on his basic lands did anything wrong and im stumbled that anyone would think that. Its just moral panic. Come on, is it really such a big deal?
April 14, 2015 4:23 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #11
The past traumas thing is pretty weak and more about potential other arts than that one. Although again, people are expecting to see war and conflict represented and can be properly mentally prepared for that, sexual imagery is entirely different
showing the human body and sexualization it are different.
Why is it so difficult to understand that bringing sexual imagery to a public event targeted at people as young as 7th graders is a bad thing?
It's a shame that adults aren't able to understand that what they find sexually attractive doesn't belong in a public area that intends to be welcoming to young teenagers.
April 14, 2015 4:31 p.m.
notamardybum says... #12
this is stupid. those anime girs arent even fucking naked, and if they were who cares. that voice token looks fine to me, not even close to being over sexualized
April 14, 2015 4:38 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #13
I'm not worried about "exposing children to sexual imagery" because frankly, if they can read a card they can open an incognito browser and type "porn".
What I don't like is the gratuitous sexually imagery. In terms of sexual imagery, I think there are three categories:
Category One is where sexual imagery matches the flavor of the card. Part of Liana's whole schtick is the role of powerful seductress (basically an Artemisia, a Cleopatra, or a Scheherazade with necromancy thrown in for good measure). Liliana of the Veil illustrates that principle perfectly.
Category Two is where sexual imagery does not match the flavor of the card. This is the most prominent and most problematic category. When a card has sexualized imagery that is at odds with the subject material. For (an extreme) example, Reversal of Fortune has literally zero reason to be that sexualized. Other examples include every depiction of a female on Mirrodin, where apparently bare female skin is the best armor to wear on a world made of metal.
Category Three is the trickiest. This is where sexual imagery does fit the flavor, but is problematic for a different reason. A good example here would be Guul Draz Vampire. Her sexual position is in keeping with the flavor of Zendikar (and although she was clearly made for the male gaze, her counterpart Guul Draz Assassin actually looks like it might have been made for the female gaze) but her sexualization remains a problem because of what the flavor is. Exoticism in western culture has been associated with sex, and evidence of that is readily available throughout history. Rather than being stylized in the traditional northern european aesthetic (a la Innistrad vampires), the vampires of zendikar are depicted as 'wild' and 'uncivilized' native peoples in a manner similar to the depictions of near eastern native peoples by northern europeans. European depictions of Persia and India were full of 'exotic' sexualized women, and these depictions are no different from the Zendikar vampires. Simply put, in Category Three the issue is not the flavor but the source of the flavor.
First of all, I think that altering cards for the sake of making them more sexual is appalling and I will scoop against you if I see you using them, just because you are the part of the MTG community I am ashamed to be associated with.
I love the game. I'm going to upfront there. But I also detest the fact that it is played almost exclusively by white males (such as myself) and feel that if we as male nerds got our shit together and started treating women like people, starting with what we tolerate and what we do not, then the game could be more diverse.
The issue of sexualized imagery in MTG cards is not just about whether or not we think something is "too far" but rather a glaring facet of a deeper underlying social issue in which we as males, especially nerdy males, as a group are misogynists. We (and I say we as a group) view women as just another step. As a group, we think of women as just another part of a game. Women aren't NPCs to interact with. Women are fellow players.
For more please read Arthur Chu's article "Your Princess is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds
April 14, 2015 4:50 p.m.
asasinater13 "Why is it so difficult to understand that bringing sexual imagery to a public event targeted at people as young as 7th graders is a bad thing?". It difficult to understand since its a girl in a swimsuit, and those 7th graders probably gets their fair share of porn. I did, and back then it was a question of actually acquire it in paper form, not just a google search. I think you make this into a too big deal, and that is what bothers me. Getting upset over an image of a cartoon lady in a swimsuit feels veeery christian-murica and thats one thing that tickles me. (not saying you are either christian or american, neither criticising either christianity or america).
April 14, 2015 4:51 p.m.
This discussion comes up in forums for any kind of media it seems, and it is always full of hypocrisy.
Sure, Magic is a family game. Who wouldn't want to play a nice game with their children showing off cards like Pulling Teeth, Sanity Gnawers, Sensory Deprivation or Macabre Waltz.
Personally I think those anime (and generally 'sexy' cards) just look silly and out of place so I wouldn't spend a single cent on them, but unless they show hardcore porn I have no problem whatsoever with them if someone else uses them. Any person who comes to a LGS to play a game of Magic has seen things far worse in his life already. Or do you really believe a 12 year old kid is shocked by a few scantily clad anime girls?
Plus it's not like there aren't any 'sexy' official Magic cards. Blood Tribute, Basandra, Battle Seraph or Reversal of Fortune to name just a few.
April 14, 2015 4:51 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #16
Frankly, and this is obviously just my opinion. I always have just seen the anime character altered art stuff and woefully immature. I don't think its a scourge to kids or anything.
April 14, 2015 4:54 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #17
Can we keep things from getting into name calling?
This is referring to the idea of sexual imagery in card alters as a whole, I wasn't trying to specify those images on those lands, and I acknowledged that that voice token isn't horrible.
The point is that people do care if you're bringing sexual imagery into an environment intended to be friendly to all ages. it's encouraging of bad behavior and it gives people unrealistic expectations of themselves and others, whether it's intentional of not. Whether people are aware that this is part of the imagery contributing to their expectations or not, it had an effect.
April 14, 2015 4:55 p.m.
Can't really tell other people what's right or how to live their life, but personally I'd find it a little weird if someone spent all that money to have cards altered so they could basically look at soft-core porn while playing Magic. I mean, you'd all think its weird if I just set my phone on the table and started visibly googling "Big breasted Women" in the middle of our game wouldn't you?
April 14, 2015 4:55 p.m.
I think if the art is good that they have at least that going for them. I personally think altered art cards are more tasteful than the weird Lolicon anime sleeves I see every once in a while. Those are creative and they are just weird. My opinion. As far as art on the card if it is done well then more props to you.
IE if you do it with taste go for it. if you dont its just weird.
April 14, 2015 4:58 p.m.
Man, I missed some good stuff here today. I haven't read it all, but there are good points on both sides here. I'm not going to comment on anyone else's comments, but I do want to leave my opinion.
Firstly, OP mentioned mtg porn, and while I don't agree with it and think it's ridiculous I have to point out the rule "if it exists, there's porn of it". I'm sure you can find it out there lol.
And while MTG could be considered a family game, I dont really consider it as so. In my experience, while there are many kids and families playing the game together, the majority of serious players (even if they're just seriously into the game or competitive) I've encountered have been adults or people old enough to understand sex. The game already has sexually provocative arts, as well as names and arts of cards depicting brutality and violence. In today's society, I don't necessarily think you can refer to something as a family game with these things being so entwined with it. Really, the point of the game is to kill your planeswalker opponent, nothing about killing is familyish to me lol. With that being said, I don't necessarily think sex should be depicted in mtg, I just don't really have a problem with it.
April 14, 2015 5:03 p.m.
asasinater13 Im all for keeping this without name calling. Thats why i put the disclaimer after my murica statement. I don't even know where you come from and i specifically pointed out that i was referring to a phenomenon and not people. Sorry if it was unclear :).
Magic is not intended to people of all ages, and my point of view is that sexual imagery is something you are ready for if you are ready to play a violent game. I do not thing it's encouraging of bad behaviour since i don't think sexuality is anything bad. Im still talking about cartoon images of girls in bikini, not an image of Liliana getting deepthroated by Jace.
April 14, 2015 5:03 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #23
"an image of Liliana getting deepthroated by Jace"... Whoa, sh** got serious.
And just as a pointer, MTG is a game for ages 13+.
April 14, 2015 5:13 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #24
I'm not trying to say people of those ages shouldn't or haven't seen porn. That's irrelevant to this argument. Game stores and wizards events after not the place to bring anything relating to sexual imagery. I can't grasp why that's something people even want to do, and do far no one has answered, if anyone has an explanation please say it.
Honestly why are you adding sexualized images to the game, and why bringing them into public?
April 14, 2015 5:21 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #25
It's an example. You tend to use examples when you argue a point.
April 14, 2015 5:27 p.m.
asasinater13 I can def see what you are saying. I would agree mostly but I live my life with the motto of things only affect me if I let them. If a weirdo wants to bring his Lolicon sleeves in then he/she can go for it but it reflects on them and not on me.
You cant police stuff like that because it would be too difficult.
Game stores and wizards events after not the place to bring anything relating to sexual imagery. I can't grasp why that's something people even want to do
Because everyone is different. Some people like it. Plain as that. Some dont. Plain as that. I dont like it unless its altered art on a card and it isnt tasteless while others could have titties upon titties and not care.
April 14, 2015 5:31 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #27
asasinater13 people who are confused sexually or aren't satisfied with their sex life tend to project their sexuality onto non-related and sometimes inappropriate mediums. They glean some sexual satisfaction off of it and it helps fill the void in their interpersonal sexual experiences.
The issue lies within the individual and not the medium.
April 14, 2015 5:33 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #29
ApocryphalSaint not everyone can use that motto. Like, I wouldn't call a judge or anything at anyone using something sexual, I'll get over it. there are people or makes uncomfortable though, and if something avoidable that someone is doing risks making others uncomfortable, I feel like it shouldn't be done. Because this is not part of the game or the expected experience of an individual going to a game store, I feel like people should avoid doing it. if it's something you enjoy enjoy it among friends who are like minded in private places, like a kitchen table get together. Bringing sexual images to a public place that is intended to be an environment that's welcoming to everyone is entirely unnecessary and rude.
Find other art you like for bringing into public.
April 14, 2015 5:42 p.m.
I agree. But lots of people dont give a shit about how what they do makes others feel. Its half the problem with this world.
April 14, 2015 5:43 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #31
Also I'm looking for an explanation from someone who does bring this type of art to their game stores. I'm a psychology major and I could come up with any number of potential reasons for someone doing that, but just putting words into other people's mouths is silly and doesn't help anything.
April 14, 2015 5:44 p.m.
MSU_Iced_Z says... #32
If the art isn't any more sexual than the cover of a magazine you can buy in the checkout line of the grocery store (Cosmo, SI Swimsuit, etc), then I think it's fine. Primetime TV shows those Carl Jr. commercials and malls have big billboards of lingerie, so I think the public sphere argument doesn't hold a ton of water. Things that are more explicit than that are probably where the store owner needs to draw the line. If you wouldn't sell it to one of your customers because of age, don't let it be used in a game against one of those customers.
April 14, 2015 6:18 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #33
For me, the biggest question here is if the weight I carry as one person is enough to imbue a strong moral fiber into LGS Kid #3. If I'm taking my own tweens to the LGS I'm not giving them a deck with dicks and titties flopping all over the place, but I'm also their primary male role model. I am not LGS Kid #3's schema for what is acceptable in society, any more than Sweaty Neck-Beard #5 is. The kid's history and cultural background (family/friends) are going to have WAY more impact then what kind of sleeves I choose for myself.
Personally, and I've said this already, I think that Anime tarts on your Zendikar islands are a waste of nice lands. I have no problem with tasteful portrayal of the female form (or male form for that matter, although it's not my taste.) My kids will be exposed to Kim Kardashian balancing a bottle on her ass or Miley Cyrus riding a hotdog through the air if they want to go looking for it, just as easily as they'll find Eminem murdering his wife if they go looking through my cd collection. It doesn't mean I condone it, or believe in it, just that it's out there and we can only teach the ones that we're close to what is and isn't ok.
Don't fool yourself into thinking not having anime tarts on your lands is going to make random kids objectify titties and dicks any less. If you're both regulars then the situation changes a bit...
April 14, 2015 7:07 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #35
smackjack No, we're just waiting for Femme's wise words of sex is all.
April 14, 2015 7:55 p.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #37
In all honesty I suppose the issue of if a card or token with alternate art could be used at an lgs would depend on the exact art on the card if it is clearly 18+ or borderline 18+ due to being overly sexualized or violent then it would most likely be best to not use it in a public location such as your lgs however if it's only mild fan service like an anime, manga, light novel, visual novel, or video game character in a swim suite or short skirt/ dress I see no problem with it being used at public locations such as an lgs.
April 14, 2015 8:06 p.m.
"... anime, manga, light novel, visual novel, or video game character..."
You just gave me an idea.
Thanks! :D
April 14, 2015 8:19 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #39
zzzz
Girls Rejoice! Its a bargain of gorgeous dresses~♥ Playtest
Casual*
SCORE: 23 | 0 COMMENTS | 2969 VIEWSChiefBell is right in that it negatively impacts children, but there are a few problems with this when referencing MTG art. I'm referencing natural mtg art, not alters. I'll discuss alters in a moment.
- The number of cards that are obscene are slim to none. The average 10 year old kid isn't going to find them in abundance.
- They are rarely out of context. Even Mirrodin block can be explained due to their lack of nonmetal material.
- They are realistic. You don't look at an MTG card and immediately think that it is fan service. Many of the outfits are things that some women will actually wear in real life. Their bodies aren't out of proportion, and are realistic in today's standards. Thinking Liliana of the Veil? Well, perfect bodies and sexual seduction generally go hand in hand. Something people seem to forget, that a character's self-sexualized portrayal could be the result of their body.
Another thing we have to consider is the management of WotC as a company. Basically, IT IS HORRIBLE. No doubt that this extends to their artists as well. While I don't know to what extend that WotC monitors their artists, I do know that they have been monitoring sexuality a lot more closely with the come of KTK. Armor that doesn't have boob slots (which is incredibly unrealistic), the Abzan (as ChiefBell mentioned a while back with Anafenza) and Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. So people seem to forget, that when you discuss sexuality in MTG, you have to actually look at the most current scenario, because you can't do anything about the past.
Sexual material in MTG is VERY tame. There are no cards or no art that suggest sex as an act. No pussy or aroused state has ever been shown. The closest we've gotten is Earthbind, but that is years ago and only ONE card, out of, hundreds of thousands.
VampireArmy is right in that a lot of girls do like sexualization. I mean, look at me, I'm a prostituting slut. And when I look around me on my campus, there are women who go around wearing dominatrix style outfits. Hell, these girls appear to appear on the same consistency as the sexualization on mtg cards.
Now let's talk about why a girl dresses like a slut. Attention's a big one. Self expression is another. But the biggest one, one that also applies to basically any reason why a girl takes so much time to pretty herself up, is self confidence. Why do you think we have such a taboo on telling a girl that she's ugly (or anyone for that matter, just appears to be a larger focus on girls)? It's because those words really harm their self-confidence. Think of Zero-Suit Samus Aran from the new Super Smash Bros. EVERYONE is bitching about her heels. And what? They're heels. GIRLS LIKE HEELS. It gives them self confidence and a feel of power. Not too mention height. And yes, you can go into combat wearing heels. I've done it before. It is actually really useful because you learn how to pivot on the heel of your heel in split mili-seconds AND use the pivot to be able to transform an impact from an opponent into spinning momentum.
So you tell samus ... "blah blah blah 'heels' blah blah blah 'jumpsuit'" And what does she do? She blasts you in the face. Cause she's a badass. What happens to her? She becomes self conscious of those things for a good month or so, distracting her from what really matters.
Another thing I want to mention is that most of this is cultural. Our responses to the portrayal of sexuality comes largely in from religious influences in that sexual things are a sin on a public and personal level (yes I like Gaijin Goomba). And that a majority of the negative impacts or uncomfortableness results from these influences.
What is male sexuality?
Male sexuality is an average main focus on two things
- Visual Stimuli.
- Self Portrayal in the Entertainment they are Viewing. Basically, Porn portrayed in first person. Which porn usually is.
I point this out, specifically mentioning the visual stimuli as a reason why men put sexually explicit material on their mtg related products. But I'll go into more detail in this on another post.
I also want to point out that feminists seem to do the "blind adoption" of this when looking at sexualized material. They don't see the reason of why it is there or if it is actually harmful. They see boobs and go NO.
Finally, there is this really weird westernization of the fear of boobs going around the world. Why are boobs something so wrong? Why are they sexually explicit material? They are part of a woman's body, and in case you haven't noticed, are near impossible to hide when you have them. So instead of thinking of boobs as something as sexual, think of them as a part of beauty, as a part of their body of who they are, not as an object.
Sexual objectification of women, is actually resulting from the people who view them as objectification. They see boobs and they only think of them as a sex object. They don't see them as a part of a woman's body just like muscles are a part of a man's body. I mean seriously, does anyone realize how frustrating it is for a girl's boobs to be sexually objectified by an observer? It's like saying, you glued them to your body to look sexy. I'm going to link to explicit material here, because this is actually a VERY good reference.
Basically, people have been doing one of two things to this image, which you can read in the comments. First, they either applaud the body. Or second, they hate the image for being just an image of a naked body.
It's these comments that fucking irritates me to all hell. How can you be so fucking blind to the TRUE PORTRAYAL OF THE IMAGE!? I'll post images of the responses I had to the image, the first one kinda had the original message I was responding to get "comment streamed" down.
TL:DR
MTG images are more regulated and less sexual now than ever, which is the first thing you should take into consideration when mentioned MTG sexualized material.
MTG's portrayal of women are realistic. The bodies are never out of proportion and the outfits are things women can and do wear in their situations.
There is no sexually suggestive material in MTG. Not one image isn't PG-13, POSSIBLE exceptions to Earthbind.
Our fear of boobs and sexualization is mainly the westernization cultural spread of christian religious values.
Sexual objectification of women and their bodies is our own doing, not the artists. We objectify them by thinking that they are purely there for sexualization, and not a part of a woman's natural body.
April 14, 2015 8:19 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #41
I feel like unnecessary sexualization isn't something I want to see. It's not necessary to have a half naked anime chick on the back of your sleeves, and in fact those sorts of things tend to somewhat offend me as a female. Objectifying the female (or male) form just seems like a slap to the face of anybody of that gender.
Like somebody else said, why alter something that already looks just fine? The lands are plenty fine without sexy women on them.
April 14, 2015 8:25 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #43
I actually forgot a key part to the projection, number 2 on male sexuality.
While watching visual stimuli, men typically prefer something that allows objectification of the actor.
I think this speaks volumes in itself.
April 14, 2015 8:41 p.m.
Femme_Fatale I am confused as to how this is reference to people having lolicon style art on their sleeves and what not?
I feel like I get what you are saying and I could agree with it on almost every point.
But I dont get how this translates to blatantly sexual "art" for the pure sake of being straight up SEX that is in reference to with this topic. People arent talking about seductive art or mostly revealing art. they are talking about OVERTLY SEXUAL for the pure sake of just being sexual with no taste what so ever type of art.
I dont mind this art. i just dont see the point other than someone just wants to stare at tasteless stimuli while they play their card game.
April 14, 2015 8:54 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #46
I specifically said that I would do alters in a moment. It's coming.
April 14, 2015 8:55 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #48
The OP specifically mentioned sexuality in MTG, I wanted to display exactly where I stood on it from the ground points of MTG themselves when people frequently mention cards like Armada Wurm, Earthbind and Reversal of Fortune (one of my favourite arts by the way).
It also puts the groundwork of what I'll be mentioning in the alters, the topic of sexually suggestive and PG-13.
April 14, 2015 8:59 p.m.
I still don't get why people lash out on Armada Wurm. I mean, I get it, but it just seems like people are digging WAY too deep to find that sexual. Come on people.
April 14, 2015 9:05 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #50
Why do I do this to myself. I had not idea what you guys were talking about, so I googled lolicon thinking it was going to be a comic con type thing. And... Now I am on a bunch of government lists.
slovakattack says... #1
Ryotenchi: If the only reason you play magic is so that you can play with sexy cards, why not switch to Yugioh? The original japanese versions of the cards have titties galore.
April 14, 2015 3:49 p.m.