Will Other Players Judge Me for Having a Playmat or Sleeves with Suggestive Artwork?
Asked by DemonDragonJ 3 years ago
I am planning to have a custom playmat made with an image that some people may consider to be inappropriate; I cannot post a link to it, here, but it is an image of Nicol Bolas as an attractive human woman with bare breasts. InkedGaming would not make a playmat with that image, but YourPlaymat will, which is great, but I worry that other players at the store where I play may think negatively of me for having it.
On the other hand, everyone who plays at the store is in their 20's and 30's, most would qualify as nerds and geeks, and, as far as I am aware, all are very liberal about depictions of nudity and sexuality in media and art; plus, the image that I am using is very tasteful and well-illustrated; it is not cheap or "dirty" in any way. It also helps that I am on very good terms with the owner of that store, who is not much older than am I.
What does everyone here have to say about this? Will other players judge a player who has a playmat or sleeves with suggestive artwork?
EleshNornsFs says... #2
Yeah. You will definitely get judged. It won't be by conservative prudes or anything, but it will get you grouped and stereotyped as the classical horny, sexually frustrated, woman-objectifying, probably hasn't showered in 3 weeks, lives in the basement, neckbeard gamer. As for my opinion, I would have to see the image to pass judgement. I can definitely appreciate good art regardless of suggestiveness and their is art to the human body, but their is also a line at which I would judge you for having it on a playmat or sleeves. The classic Chandra x Liliana is the most common example I see that crosses the line.
October 11, 2020 8:02 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
They will very much judge you. I also feel that they very much should. Even though the current players in the store may be cool with it, you are making the environment a hostile one for new people who made be uncomfortable with such depictions. Anime Tiddies is not appropriate subject matter for a playmat you are going to be using in public.
October 11, 2020 8:03 p.m.
Do it for playing at home not at public place.
Its not matter how "dirty" or "tasteful" your Image looks.
At end its sexual and can provokate someone.
I see some suspended People on Tournaments for wearing provokate TShirts, Playmats or somthing else. You dont know how Ppl. see your Image.
Anyway, pls protect Kids.
October 11, 2020 8:13 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #5
Look at it from their perspective. Yes, the concept is cool. But does it really have to be a partially nude character? No. This is objectification. Not gonna sugarcoat it. You are turning the female body into a display piece. Now, it is a piece of art, and putting moral arguments aside, there is no reason that you can’t have the mat made.
But, don’t be surprised or mad when you get judged, or if you get told not to bring it. An lgs is a public forum that is owned by a private individual. And DO NOT USE THE PLAYMAT IN FRONT OF KIDS!!! It doesn’t matter what your moral compass says on that, if a kid is looking at it, you can be charged with distribution of porn to minors and it’s an open and shut case.
October 11, 2020 8:26 p.m.
TheVectornaut says... #6
It's worth remembering that whenever you spend a lot of time playing in a local game store, everything you do reflects upon that store. If they are a location that markets to an adult audience, you'd probably be fine. However, the vast majority of stores that run MTG events serve the general public, including children. It's not particularly appropriate to display explicit content in such locations, even if the odds of children showing up on any day are low. For private use though, sounds like a cool idea. I'm personally working out a plan for custom cat tokens that fit in with the well-endowed aesthetic of Kemba, Kha Regent for kitchen table use.
October 11, 2020 8:29 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #7
I didn't actually read the post thoroughly. Bare breasts cross the line. Don't do it.
October 11, 2020 8:29 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #8
No offense my guy but taking a fictional character, humanizing it, THEN sexualizing it, is not tasteful no matter what.
Also yeah nudity is not okay, children play at these game shops and at tournaments. Keep your rule34 google searches in your computer.
October 11, 2020 8:48 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #9
So, no one is going to judge you for buying it or liking these kind of things. However, when you start involving other people with your "kinks" without asking that's where the line is drawn. If you have your own private playgroup and you get the green light, sure go nuts but just flopping it on the table at an event is distasteful and will more than likely result in either the judge telling you to change mats or you'll be ejected from the event.
October 11, 2020 9:03 p.m.
JANKYARD_DOG says... #10
I too have a questionable game mat I got because a) I love Lily, and b) Its funny that Lily, some 3000yr+ old lady is flirting with a 23yrish (?) Chandra, who definitely didn't know what to think of that. Way I see it is there are 2 sides to the mat... the cool side I like, and the more boring it agreeable black side... sure it slides some but w/e. Until I get a new one at least...
October 11, 2020 9:21 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #11
I am very sad to read everyone's responses, in this thread, but I do appreciate your honesty and frankness on this subject.
Also, I do not like the idea that nudity or sexuality would somehow traumatize or psychologically scar children; has there ever been clear evidence that that has actually occurred?
EleshNornsFs, it is interesting that you mentioned an image of Chandra and Liliana, since another image that I was considering being made into a playmat is one that shows Liliana and Chandra together in a bed, which is another image that I cannot post on this forum; their bodies are almost entirely covered by the sheets, so there is no nudity, but Chandra is embarrassed, whereas Liliana is evidently satisfied, so I feel that such an image is sufficiently tasteful that it would offend only the most puritanical of people.
October 11, 2020 9:26 p.m.
LordBlackblade says... #12
I don't consider myself a prude or anything, but I've sat across from players with mats like you're describing before and you will 100% get judged for it. I've seen a lot of strange stuff at game shops, but weird sex stuff is where I draw the line. It is still a public place and a business.
October 11, 2020 9:28 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #13
LordBlackblade, in that case, what is a respectful way to express one's admiration for women, and are you saying that I should abandon my quest to have custom playmats made with those images?
October 11, 2020 9:48 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #14
Also, I should have said this, in my first post, but of course I would use such playmats only when playing with my close friends, and not in front of strangers; also, just be to certain, I printed out the images that I wish to use on ordinary paper and will ask the owner of my local game store if he would object to playmats with such images, before I spend money on such playmats.
October 11, 2020 9:57 p.m.
LordBlackblade says... #15
I'm not a great one for advice on women, so let's focus on the mats themselves.
You can get whatever you want for use in your own home. This is America (at least I think it is). Just keep it home.
Gameshops are, in general, a much more accepting place of what would be deemed eccentric behavior than other places (as I've said before, I've seen a lot of strange stuff at them). That said, There are usually limits.
It's all about knowing when and where acceptable places are for certain behaviors. That really comes down to you and whatever society you belong to. Bottom line, don't be anti-social. Way too many gamers (in my opinion) are a little too out there for their own good, and it makes more "normal" people uncomfortable and feel less welcome.
October 11, 2020 10:03 p.m.
I'll be blunt, you should absolutely not make such a mat, and bringing such a mat to the local game store--even if you only intend to play against friends--would be a mistake. Why? You cannot control who else enters the LGS.
So, let's try to consider the third perspective not really addressed in this thread--that of female players who might see your mat.
Try to put yourself in the shoes of a female player. You walk into your LGS looking to buy some product or play some Magic, and you see someone playing with a mat that objectifies and sexualizes females. That's going to make a whole lot of females uncomfortable with you, uncomfortable with the store, and uncomfortable with the game itself.
There is a reason Magic has moved away from art depicting overly sexualized women--it leads to a rather hostile environment for the group being treated as an object, rather than as a person.
I am slightly concerned that you seem to think that this kind of artwork is an appropriate way to "express one's admiration for women". To be clear, it isn't. This kind of art isn't an expression of admiration, it's an expression of Lust.
With respect, this entire thread seems like you are only thinking about these artworks from an male-exclusive perspective, without thought or care for how the other sex would react.
October 11, 2020 10:17 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #17
LordBlackblade, that is very good advice, although I do have another question; why is nudity in artwork from centuries ago acceptable and seen as classic art to be viewed by all, whereas nudity and sexuality from the current century is acceptable only to certain audiences?
Caerwyn, in that case, what is an appropriate way to express admiration for women? Also, how do you explain the artwork on Rakish Heir or Enthralling Victor?
October 11, 2020 10:22 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #18
Also, Caerwyn, what about classic artwork, such as The Birth of Venus or L'Origine du monde? How are those different from modern artwork that features the same subject matter? Do those not objectify women, as well?
October 11, 2020 10:26 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #19
You're talking about a piece of art history versus a gaming accessory. A painting in a museum from a different time versus a nude poster at a place minors frequent.
October 11, 2020 10:31 p.m.
LordBlackblade says... #20
It just has to do with what is considered socially acceptable within a given culture. Art in general is super subjective, but enough people have decided that these classics look nice (and are considered the works of masters) that it has become widely accepted within that culture.
It's really hard to pin down when something widely accepted by a culture, it's usually a really gradual process. I kind of like the quote from the Hon. Potter Stewart during a case on defining obscene material, "I know it when I see it." I think the things that are acceptable in society work that way too. If you are a well-adjusted member of said society, you know what is and isn't acceptable by feeling, if not by a strict definition.
Sincere apologies for the long post. My usual brevity felt insufficient to express my thoughts on the topic at hand.
October 11, 2020 10:35 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #21
The majority of users here seem to believe that I should not make such playmats, so I shall not; it seems that I shall need to find some different artwork to use, in that case.
October 11, 2020 10:38 p.m.
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Generally avoiding one of the Seven Deadly Sins is a good place to start. Personally, I find treating the fairer sex as human beings, rather than objects to be desired, works pretty well. For more information, feel free to check out Jane Austin or similar sources of information.
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Those cards are always cited by individuals seeking a justification for objectifying women. I think this argument is flawed in a couple respects. First, and foremost, if those cards were objectifying men, two wrongs do not make a right; it wouldn't change the fact that objectifying women is wrong. Second, I do not think either of these cards really objectify men. They are designed to be sexy characters, but they are not designed to be purely sex objects. Enthralling Victor stands tall and proud, in a natural pose that exudes confidence. Rakish Heir likewise is shown in a moment of victory, covered in the blood of his prey. These are not objects; they're powerful figures who exude power. Siona, Captain of the Pyleas has her legs bare, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain has her middriff exposed... but both are drawn to be individuals in positions of strength; their exposed portions are not to objectify them, but just part of showing their character. Same goes for the Birth of Venus--Venus might be nude, but Botticelli draws Venus with a degree of character and uses the nudity to further define a character that is inexorably intertwined with lust. I'd say your other example was purposefully designed to be provocative, and create a visceral reaction in the viewer, so isn't actually a good example to prove your point.
Again, it seems a lot like you are trying to justify something that 100% of the responses on the thread have said is problematic.
October 11, 2020 10:39 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #23
Caerwyn, those are both excellent points, so I now have two more questions to ask you: first, has your opinion of me been diminished by me making this thread? It seemed that we were getting along so well, before now, and I do not wish to ruin such a great friendship. Second, does this forum have a private messaging feature? I would like to send you the images, so that you may form a better opinion of them, because the female human Bolas is very much displayed in a position of strength and power.
October 11, 2020 10:51 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #24
DemonDragonJ upgraded accounts have messaging if both sides agree to it. Though I'm fairly sure you shouldn't just send a risky image or a link of a risky image before asking the reciever if they would like to see it.
October 11, 2020 10:53 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #25
RNR_Gaming, what is the fee for upgrading an account? I also did ask Caerwyn if he wished to see the images, since I have not yet sent them to him.
October 11, 2020 10:56 p.m.
To answer those questions:
Rest assured, my opinion of you has not diminished. I understand that this kind of art can be quite popular; you had the decency to ask an embarrassing question and were willing to accept that you might not have been in the right and decide against ordering the playmats. I don't fault people for asking for help, and I certainty don't fault people who are willing to change their opinions.
So, no hard feelings or diminished opinions in the slightest!
As for the second question, TappedOut does have a messaging feature that is available only to upgraded users (the $5.00 upgrade option, not the monthly subscription one). That said, I'd rather not see the art, if it is all the same to you.
October 11, 2020 10:57 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #27
I spent half an hour writing this, will post again once I’m up to speed on current happenings.
DemonDragonJ Arguably, yes, the artworks you mentioned DO objectify women. I have seen many debates on the topic.
You do make a good point. There is a social stigma around bare chests that has a double standard between sexes. But there is a difference between glorifying the female form and sexualizing a cartoon character. To be callous, adding bare tits (probably with bigger proportions than any actually bosom) to Minnie Mouse doesn’t make you a feminist. It makes you a hentai artist. If you’re ok with that, great! But don’t expect the world to be ok with it. Because what you’re doing isn’t glorifying the female form. If that’s what you’re doing, then why is there a Bolas head? You said it was Nicol Bolas with a female body, not the other way around. You’re just sexualizing the character and justifying it to yourself by saying “oh no I’m just worshipping women.” If you want to worship a woman’s body, find a girlfriend and worship her body, mind and soul. Don’t try to turn her into your perfect sex doll. Acknowledge the fact that no one looks like they do in hentai, get over yourself, and worship reality, not a cartoon character that’s been modified to look like what you think is the perfect sexual image. Stop deceiving yourself.
I’m not trying to pass judgement on you as a person. You seem a decent sort, and though we have differing opinions on this topic, I personally subscribe to the philosophy that certain behavior is learned, not innate to oneself. Society tells you who to be, and even though you might not realize it, that’s shaped this more than you know.
Let us be honest, all of us are biased by one factor or another. We will never see eye to eye. Personally, I would rather a mat such as the one you describe not enter my eyesight, if for no other reason than that it would make me uncomfortable. I can say with confidence that as an adult, I would not feel comfortable sitting down across from someone who had the playmat you described. It is a matter of personal comfort. Having something that is legally defined as pornographic displayed in a public space is crossing a line, regardless of the societal imbalance behind that definition.
To summarize bluntly, if you make the mat, please keep it for your own private use. And don’t be at all surprised if you are stigmatized if you display it to someone. Even reading this feels like I’m scrolling through r/gonewild, which I have not visited since middleschool. I didn’t need to know about the existence of sexualized Bolas. Save it for r/yiff.
And to anyone who will criticize me, saying I’m anti-furry or using furry as an insult, I’m not. I am a furry, and I choose not to view places like r/yiff. Those places exist so I can choose what I view, instead of this popping up in Tapped Out’s gear forum.
I didn’t think this would go this far. I’m sorry if I’ve insulted anyone, I had no intention of doing so.
October 11, 2020 11 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #28
Ok, the only thing I want to add is that you’ve not dropped in my esteem. To me, you seem misled, and I’m sure I seem the same to you. You’re entitled to your own opinion, and I do applaud your courage in asking this question. Just because I think we have different answers doesn’t mean I have a reason to dislike you.
October 11, 2020 11:03 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #29
Caerwyn, VampDemigod, I am very glad that you still think highly of me, because I would feel terrible if I had ruined my own reputation by asking such a question, and I shall not send the images to Caerwyn, since he does not wish to see them.
October 11, 2020 11:08 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #30
DemonDragonJ wait who said anything about thinking highly of you! (JK)
October 11, 2020 11:11 p.m.
Chandra585 says... #31
I'd first like to echo what Caerwyn said about the exact nature of objectification, and to add my own thought. Nicol Bolas is, in canon, a male dragon. His species does not have breasts, as they are reptiles. Now, I'm not normally one to whine about canon, but changing a character's species and gender into a combination of the two that can have breasts is really damn objectifying.
Additionally, I'd like to say that everything you do creates an impression on other people. If I walked into my LGS and sat down at a table, I'd expect to throw down my Coffin Queen or Ephara, God of the Polis mat, for the person next to me to put down a game knights exclusive mat, etc. If you come in and lay down tits-out Nicol Bolas, I am going to make a snap judgement about who you are. And I don't think you'd like what I judged you to be.
October 11, 2020 11:15 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #32
VampDemigod, in the artwork that I have been mentioning, the woman does not have a draconic head; she has golden-green skin, glowing emerald green eyes, and massive draconic wings, and is standing triumphantly atop a tall mountain with green lightning crackling from her hands, essentially a homage to the original artwork on Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.
Chandra585, in that case, what about the other piece of artwork that I mentioned? Would that also be equally offensive?
October 11, 2020 11:19 p.m.
Chandra585 says... #33
DemonDragonJ, I'll be honest. That other art would be just as offensive. It feels like fetishization, plain and simple, and is basically another form of twisting the world and characters around to find something that is sexually appealing to you. My problem is not with nudity. It's with deliberately sexual content.
October 11, 2020 11:25 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #34
Chandra585, that does make sense, and I can understand your perspective on the matter, plus, I already have two playmats, so I do not need another one, yet.
October 11, 2020 11:27 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #35
DemonDragonJ I’m less offset by that, but still a little offset. I’d say what I said still stands, though to a less harsh extent. My point remains though, that the art doesn’t respect the truth of either women or Bolas. Still, you have my respect for the idea, the concept is cool, even though I do still object to it.
Chandra kinda said it better tho.
October 11, 2020 11:27 p.m.
Daedalus19876 says... #36
"What is an appropriate way to express admiration for women?"
...by not sexually objectifying them all over a public space? That might be a good start ;)
Seriously, of all the stuff in the thread, this internal 'justification' frustrates me most. Let's be honest with ourselves here: you're not expressing "admiration for women" (as human beings), you're drooling over naked, objectified female bodies. You're basically looking for permission to be horny in public. Big distinction there.
You're going out of your way to convert an unrelated character into an unclothed female sex object, then spreading that art all around a public space which may contain 1) children, and 2) at least a few people who won't be comfortable with that kind of blatant horny drooling (such as, I dunno, actual real-life women who want to be considered as more than sex objects in the magic community?).
So yes, honest answer, you'll get judged.
October 12, 2020 12:01 a.m. Edited.
Unknown says... #37
Good rule of thumb: If you have to ask if it is appropriate, it's not.
October 12, 2020 12:40 a.m.
Suns_Champion says... #38
I don’t have anything unique to say here, but I wish to add to the voices discouraging you from taking such a playmat to an LGS or any other public place.
October 12, 2020 1:39 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #39
Daedalus19876, you make an excellent point, and this is a humbling experience, for me, because I have always thought of myself as being better than the type of men that you and other users here are describing, but this thread is evidence that I am behaving exactly like that type of men.
Again, however, since you mentioned not showing such material around children, I must ask, is there any evidence that depictions of nudity and sexuality cause any psychological harm to children?
October 12, 2020 7 a.m.
The simple point is, if you're concerned that people will judge you about a playmat that you A) feel that you have to justify why it's ok (and in this case your justification isn't a good one) and B) have deemed the picture to be inappropriate enough that you were unwilling to post it here should be enough information to answer your own question.
And of top of all of that, things like this are part of the reason that MtG players get a bad reputation and it's attitudes like this that drive women away from the game.
October 12, 2020 8:39 a.m.
jconeil1988 says... #41
I've read the whole thread, even you deciding to not go through with getting the playmat. But I'd still like to add my two cents.
If you have to ask the question "Is this approriate?" and take longer than a couple of seconds to answer "Yes," then it is probably most likely inappropriate and you are spending time trying to find justifications as to why it can be considered appropriate. So, yeah, I think that you having to create this post grants the answer as a hard no.
October 12, 2020 9:35 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #42
I'm half and half on this.
It depends on the style of art. If it's done in an artistic manner, and not in a provocative fashion then...
but I can't even finish that sentence because of the following
I have kids, so as a parent I would frown on it greatly.
It seems like the line of over sexualizing has been blurred so much through gaming, comics, etc that a large majority of people assume it's ok display art of anime stylized women in very sexual ways, and it's a constant struggle for me to keep those things away from them. Furthermore, it's more women than men in my area that do these things and they're failing to realize they're setting a precedent for young girls.
I have 2 sons and 2 daughters, and one day I had gotten on my playstation to find my oldest daughters avatar (who is 12 mind you) to be a large breasted devil woman in tight revealing leather holding a fetish whip in a classroom setting. While I have some things like this, depicted in comics in manga, these are things not readily available to my childrens eyes. I of course told her that she needed to change it, that it was inappropriate and didn't speak anymore on the matter.
What I've noticed is that in the event of everyone accepting sexuality, people have also become very public about the acts on social media down using phrases like "don't kink shame" and what everyone is failing at is the realization that there are much younger audiences being exposed to this and accepting it as a norm and that an automatic correlation is made with them on "this is how to be because she does it" and honestly I'm still screaming "What the f*** is wrong with people"
Sorry about the long comment but ugh. This whole thing gets me worked up.
October 12, 2020 10:26 a.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #43
Will you get judged? Yes you will. As I kid if I saw you using a playmat like that I probably wouldn't want to go back to that store, which is bad for business.
October 12, 2020 10:48 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #44
I have no idea where my comment went.
So I guess I'll just say all of this.
On sexualizing art.
There is a certain line, women are depicted in revealing clothing all throughout Magic's artwork, women are in revealing clothing all throughout several different types of media, whether it be tv, gaming, or yes even right down to womens selfies. I think the line has become very blurred throughout the years as to what's appropriate or inappropriate and I think that's something you have to decide for yourself.
On "sexual objectification"
When a man removes his shirt to expose a bare chest, abs and hips, (let's say in Thor or the Witcher) have you never noticed a womans response to this? I have and it's there very same response that men have to seeing a woman with her breasts exposed. What we have though is a double standard, it is ok in society for a man to walk around without a shirt and not ok for a woman, but saying it's sexual objectification is a but extreme considering that both do it.
On to the playmat itself.
I have 4 children. One day I got on my playstation to find my daughters avatar to be a big breasted devil woman in tight revealing leather holding a short whip in a classroom background. She's 12. I immediately told her it was inappropriate and had her change it. I think when done from an artistic stand point it's ok, say as in renaissance style paintings, but when it give the idea of a sexual act then it's wrong and I think that all throughout media lately we have pushed sexuality and sexual discovery so much that we've forgotten whole generations beneath us who do not need to be exposed to this. If they see it media and even women taking revealing selfies, anime girls in sexualized poses, they begin to think this is a norm and will follow suit because we set a precedent for what's ok when quite frankly, it's not.
Profet93 says... #1
DemonDragonJ
People will judge you no matter what. I have a kiki-jiki alter as the black female from Drake's music video (kiki do you love me) with her saying "mhm hm" and people thought it's racist, it's art.
That being said.... I would bring another playmat with you just incase. Sometimes come inside shops, sometimes the store owner isn't ok with it, sometimes a new member coming in isn't ok with it. Thats why it's best to have a backup, better to be safe than sorry.
I remember when I was 13, this older gentlemen has anime women with large breasts as his sleeve and young anime girls as his mat. I was too young and stupid to understand, so I didn't care, but I remember lots of my friends were calling him names. While you may not be in a similar level of "lewdness", keep in mind that is something you might/(will) go through.
If you're ok with people judging for that, go for it.
Also, yourplaymat does good work. Be sure to get them in foil!
October 11, 2020 7:59 p.m.