Aurelia + Port Razer

Asked by OmicronPrime 1 month ago

In order to maximize my combat steps in a scenario with Aurelia, the Warleader and Port Razer , would I have to hang back with Port Razer on Aurelia's first combat, or do the extra combat triggers stack if I send Port Razer in with the first combat and he connects?

Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1

You will get a total of 3 combats no matter how you swing. Additional steps and phase stack and are just taken in the reverse order that they were created.

Without giving your entire team vigilance, the number of useful combat steps would only be 2 if you swung with both Aurelia, the Warleader and Port Razer in the first combat. Each one untaps when the trigger resolves and the combat is created, so the creatures will not normally untap between the second and third declare attackers steps.

March 12, 2021 8:02 p.m.

OmicronPrime says... #2

Soo...taken in reverse order they were created...if I attack with Aurelia, Port Razer, and X number of creatures. Does Aurelia trigger first (resolve last) since it's just on attack, and then Port Razer triggers second (resolve first) since it happens on damage and after the attack trigger?

Also, if I were to connect on a different player with Port Razer on my second combat, does another Port Razer trigger go on the stack that would still resolve before the Aurelia trigger?

March 12, 2021 9:26 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #3

You are misusing a little terminology, but the essence of what you said in both questions is correct.

When you attack with Aurelia, the Warleader for the first time she triggers on the declare attackers step. When the trigger resolves it untaps your creatures and creates a combat after the current combat. The stack must be empty to advance steps or phases, so there is nothing on the stack at this point.

When Port Razer deals combat damage to a player he triggers on the combat damage step. When the trigger resolves he untaps your creatures and creates another combat phase after the current one. By virtue of just being created "after this combat damage phase" it is before whatever the next phase would be. It doesn't matter if the next phase would be a combat phase or a main phase. His is created before whatever it is. Again, the stack must be empty to advance the phase, so nothing is actually "on the stack".

The same logic applies to if you create a combat phase while there are already phases waiting to happen that were created in previous combat phases. "After this one" just creates it immediately after the current one. The same problem applies that both mentioned cards immediately untap the creatures.

Moraug, Fury of Akoum and World at War are the only two cards at the present time that untap your creatures at a time other than immediately when the combat is created. All other effects can not stack multiple phases at the same time usefully without vigilance or some other way to untap the creatures.

March 13, 2021 1:16 a.m.

Mcat1999 says... #4

Savage Beating , Scourge of the Throne , Relentless Assault , Breath of Fury , Aggravated Assault , Fury of the Horde , Waves of Aggression ...

Gidgetimer, all of these untap your creatures. Seize the Day is an example of a time where not everything untaps.

As for your point about Moraug, Fury of Akoum and World at War being the "only two" cards that untap at a time other than "immediately" when combat is created, this is not technically accurate. Moraug states "At the beginning of that combat, untap all creatures you control." and WaW states "At the beginning of that combat, untap all creatures that attacked this turn."

If you mean for cards that untap your creatures BEFORE combat is reinitiated, then Combat Celebrant is an example. Your creatures untap before the second Combat phase begins. They untap when Combat Celebrant Exerts for the first time each turn. Fury of the Horde also untaps before combat is reinitiated.

Perhaps I am misreading or misunderstanding your post. Merely wanted to give my thoughts on how I am seeing it.

Hope I didn't come off rude. I can be stern and mono-toned very often. Just how I speak / type.

March 13, 2021 2:10 a.m.

OmicronPrime says... #5

Gidgetimer yeah, myb on my confusing terminology. I'm just trying to picture the combat phase in my head with these multiple combat triggers. If I understand correctly this is how the combat would play out with Aurelia and Port Razer...

Aurelia untap trigger resolves on declare attackers, everything untaps including the Port Razer that connected with a player, putting the Port Razer combat trigger on the stack and by virtue of his rules text "after this combat phase...", his is the immediate next combat to resolve which means everything that attacks this second combat will be tapped when the third combat trigger resolves, so Aurelia will be the only creature able to swing on the final combat unless my creatures have vigilance.

March 13, 2021 2:35 a.m. Edited.

OmicronPrime says... #6

And, would hanging back with Port Razer until the second Aurelia combat be the way to maximize all potential untaps for all my creatures to take full advantage of all 3 combat phases?

March 13, 2021 2:46 a.m.

Neotrup says... #7

Yes, holding back with Port Razer will maximize the use of your potential combat steps by optimizing when you untap. If all your creatures have vigilance, such as with Heliod, God of the Sun , this is unnecessary. I believe the order extra combat steps is taken in was only mentioned to state they don't 'overwrite' each other, that is, both will be taken even if they are created in the same combat by attacking with both, but as stated, they cause the untaps when they're created, not when they're take. The order they're taken only matters if the combat phases are somehow different, such as how World at War creates a combat with a delayed triggered ability to untap during it.

@Mcat1999 What Gidgetimer is talking about with untapping at a time other than when the combat is created is that all the other spells you mention include untapping during their resolution, which is also when they create the combat. World at War and Moraug, Fury of Akoum create delayed triggered abilities to untap that trigger at the beginning of the combat step during the phases they create.

March 13, 2021 6:39 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #8

Neotrup hit the nail right on the head. Of the 18 cards that create additional combat steps, 16 untap some or all creatures as part of the same effect that creates the combat. This means that they untap the creatures immediately when the combat is CREATED. The only two that do not untap creatures immediately when the combat is CREATED are World at War and Moraug, Fury of Akoum . They untap creatures when the combat they created BEGINS.

I was making the distinction because if you Fork World at War you will be able to swing with all creatures on both combats. If you Fork any of Fury of the Horde , Relentless Assault , Savage Beating , Seize the Day , or Waves of Aggression the creature(s) will be untapped twice before the first additional combat is taken and will not untap between the first and second additional combat.

My comment about steps and phases being taken in the reverse order of what they were created was trying to be super exact because the same is true of additional turns. Steps and phases added to a turn will still have the same active player, so as Neotrup said the distinction hardly matters in most cases. Players taking additional turns may have different active players and it matters to keep track of who takes what additional turn.

March 13, 2021 6:43 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #9

In the future, please remember to hit the green "Mark as Answer" button to indicate your question has been resolved. As this thread has been resolved for several days, I have gone ahead and marked an answer on your behalf.

March 22, 2021 2:13 p.m.

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