2 Questions - Help with Rules Please
Asked by Max121212 7 years ago
Can I use Gempalm Polluter to damage a planeswalker?It says "lose life".
What about Shepherd of Rot, how would that work?
How does the game work when affecting multiple things simultaneously.Say, Wrath of God or Patriarch's Bidding.
In what order do we resolve it all?
Thanks for your time :)
Metroid_Hybrid says... #2
Planeswalkers can be dealt damage (ex. Lightning Bolt or Pestilence Demon), but cannot lose life..
January 21, 2018 5:55 a.m.
If a creature deals combat damage to a Planeswalker, that many loyalty counters are removed from it.
Other sources can deal damage to Planeswalkers. If a spell or ability you control would deal damage to an opponent, you may have it deal that damage to a Planeswalker that opponent controls instead. So while you can't target a Planeswalker with a Shock, you can have a Shock that targets your opponent deal 2 damage to one of his or her Planeswalkers instead of to the player. You can't split the damage from one source between a player and a Planeswalker. Damage dealt to a Planeswalker results in that many loyalty counters being removed from it.
Planeswalkers don't have "Life", only loyalty counters, therefore you can't make them loose life as that statistic does not apply to them by any means.
January 21, 2018 6:30 a.m.
Max121212,
Regarding Planeswalkers:
Non-combat damage to a player can be redirected to one of their Planeswalkers. However, loss of life is not damage, so the effect of neither Gempalm Polluter nor Shepherd of Rot can be redirected.
The official rulings are ...
- 118.2. Damage dealt to a player normally causes that player to lose that much life.
- 306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead.
January 21, 2018 6:43 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #5
Re: your second question.
When Wrath of God resolves, it destroys all creatures, and they can't be regenerated. That means that while WOG is resolving, all non-indestructible creatures are moved to the graveyard simultaneously. Any effects that trigger when a creature dies/leaves the battlefield trigger simultaneously, but NONE are put on the stack until the Wrath finishes resolving, at which point all non-indestructible creatures are now in the graveyard, and the Wrath itself moves to the graveyard as well.
THEN, the active player (whoever's turn it is) puts all triggers he/she controls onto the stack in whatever order they choose. Then the next player in turn order does the same, and so on, until all triggers are on the stack. Then all triggers resolve in last-on-first-off order.
This applies to Patriarch's Bidding as well. But let's look at a card that does (sort of) both - Living Death.
Lets say you have a Butcher of Malakir and a Black Cat in play, and a Gray Merchant of Asphodel in your graveyard. Your opponent has an Omnath, Locus of Rage and two of his 5/5 elemental tokens in play, plus a Solemn Simulacrum in his graveyard.
If you cast Living Death, then it is placed on the stack. Assuming no responses, it begins to resolve, and the creatures in the graveyards and battlefield exchange positions. This causes Omnath, Locus of Rage to trigger three times (as three elementals die), Solemn Simulacrum to trigger as it enters the battlefield, Gray Merchant of Asphodel to trigger as it enters the battlefield, Black Cat to trigger as it dies, and Butcher of Malakir to trigger twice as both it and the cat die. NONE of these abilities go on the stack yet (because Living Death is still finishing its resolution). Once LD resolves, and is moved to the graveyard, you, as the active player, get to stack your triggers however you like - let's say you go with the Gray Merchant trigger first (at the bottom of the stack), followed by both the Black Cat trigger, then the two Butcher of Malakir triggers. Then your opponent gets to place their triggers on the stack in any order they like - let's say the put the three Omnath triggers on first, two targeting Gray Merchant, then one targeting you, then put the Solemn trigger on top.
Now, all triggers are on the stack. For the first time since the Living Death was cast, you get priority, and can cast instants or activate abilities. Assuming you and your opponent both decline to add anything else to the stack, the following happens, in order:
Your opponent gets a basic land from their deck and puts it into play tapped.
You are dealt three damage from an Omnath trigger.
Your Gray Merchant is dealt three damage from an Omnath trigger.
Your Gray Merchant is dealt three damage from an Omnath trigger. Your Gray Merchant is moved to the graveyard for having 6 damage marked on it, and only 4 toughness.
Your opponent sacrifices a creature. They choose Solemn Simulacrum (the only choice), and the Robot moves to the graveyard.
Solemn's death trigger goes off, and your opponent puts "Draw a card" on top of the stack.
Your opponent draws a card.
Your opponent sacrifices a creature. Since they have no creatures, this has no effect.
Your opponent discards a card.
Your opponent loses life equal to your devotion to black (zero) and you gain that much life.
Between each of these steps, both players will have the opportunity to cast spells or activate abilities, provided those spells/abilities are not limited to sorcery speed.
January 21, 2018 7:18 a.m.
Thanks all!
Much appreciated :)
Just to be totally clear, a Pestilence Demon would damage a player AND their Planeswalkers, right?
...or could you choose to quote "have it deal that damage to a Planeswalker that opponent controls instead" ?
So triggering Pestilence Demon only once could do 2 damage to a Planeswalkers and 0 to it's player/controler ? hmmm?
Parasympathetic, thats so thorough!
Thank you.
If you don't mind me nitpicking over it I could learn a bit here.
Again, just to be totally clear, if the player in your example chose to stack Butcher of Malakir and Black Cat the other way around this would make to difference right?
This Butcher of Malakir would still trigger 2 times either way because it's all simultaneous. Is that right?
Also...
I was under the understanding that a card with multiple affects resolved each affect in the order it was written on the card.
...also, also I was under the understanding that a player could take priority between affects.
My previous understanding...
Living Death: 'all sacrifices' affect, opportunity for priority then 'all enter the battlefield' affect.
If this is untrue I have been playing some of my games wrong.
Thanks for your time :)
January 22, 2018 2:26 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... Accepted answer #7
Re: Pestilence Demon. Because it says "1 damage to each creature and player" a single activation will not damage ANY planeswalkers. If you choose to redirect the damage from a player to a planeswalker they control, you may, but that would result in 0 damage to the player, and 1 point of damage to one planewalker they control.
If it said "1 damage to each creature and player and planeswalker" then you could do 2 to a single walker with a single activation by redirecting the player's damage in addition to the 1 damage the demon would normally do.
Re: Living death.
Correct, if you stack Black Cat and Butcher of Malakir's triggers in the opposite order, the only difference is that they would have to discard a card before sacrificing Solemn Simulacrum and drawing a card from it. You would still get both triggers from Butcher, because no matter how you choose to stack the triggers, both the Cat and the Butcher died at the same time, so the Butcher sees both deaths.
You're... sort of correct in the second part?
The card's effects DO happen in the order printed. So for example, if I cast Rishkar's Expertise, I draw a bunch of cards, THEN get to choose a card to cast from my hand. However, you don't have the priority part right. What really happens with Living Death is this:
Living Death Starts to resolve.
Each player exiles all creatures from their graveyard.
Each player sacrifices all creatures he/she controls.
All death/leave the battlefield triggers go off, but NONE are put on the stack yet. This is because Living Death is still resolving, and nothing can be put on the stack during a spell's resolution (except, as in Rishkar's Expertise, when it happens as a part of the spell's resolution).
Each player puts all creatures he/she controls onto the battlefield.
All ETB effects trigger, but none are put on the stack because Living Death is still resolving.
Living Death finishes resolving, and is placed in the graveyard.
You, the active player, get to choose how to order ALL triggers you control. Even though technically the death triggers went off before the ETB triggers, because they can't be put on the stack until the spell is finished resolving, you're able to put LTB effects on the stack after ETB effects, if you so choose.
Does this make sense? You do NOT get priority between sacrificing your creatures and bringing your other creatures back. You do NOT get priority between the spell resolving, and putting your (and your opponents) triggers on the stack. You DO get priority before any effects from creatures leaving/entering play resolve, and you do get priority between each effect as they resolve.
January 22, 2018 4:18 a.m.
...man thats tricky!
Thanks again Parasympathetic.
I totally get that Planeswalkers thing now.
If you don't mind I'd like to throw a curveball your way about the simultaneously resolving thing.
Again using Living Death.
Lets say that I have in play 3 Butcher of Malakir and in the graveyard 3 Noxious Ghoul
(never mind what the other player has).
My understanding now is that each of the Butchers will trigger 3 sacrifices, 9 total.
With the Butchers it's kind of like each one died last.
Died last, taking the others into account as if all others died before them.
...but if this was an accurate description of what resolving simultaneously means then what is this to the Ghouls...?
'Entered' last, taking the others into account as if all others 'entered' before them.
If this was the case then each Ghoul would only do -1, -3 in total (opposed to -9).
It's as if any description of 'simultaneous' would need to change depending on what we're talking about at the time.
Such as...
Wrath of God = "all exit last"
Patriarch's Bidding = "all enter first"
Seems a bit nuts.
January 23, 2018 5 a.m.
In this case, you would 9 ghoul triggers and 9 butcher triggers that all want to go on the stack at the same time, you get to order them however you like.
does not really matter whoever enters or exits first or last, they all do so at the same time - after Living Death has finished resolving.
The reason they all see each other and themselves enter/leave the battlefield is their text. "whenever butcher of malakir or another creature" means it sees itself for its own ability. If the card had the text "whenever another creature dies" instead, you would only get 6 triggers.
Remember, when a card mentions its own name in its text, it means "this permanent right here" and not "all creatures named butcher of malkir".
Exactly the same with ghouls.
BabyK says... #1
With your first question, if something says "player," it doesn't mean planeswalker, although players are planeswalkers. They didn't do too well thinking that through. Anyway, if it says "player" it's referring to you and your friends. It will say "each or target planeswalker" when talking about jace, chandra, etc.
With your second question, I don't think I quite understand what you're asking. Both are sorceries so they can't respond to other spells and will go off last from the stack.
January 21, 2018 5:35 a.m.