Budget VS $$$$
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Dec. 27, 2020, 4:19 p.m. by 3devils
I am looking for opinions and talking points on deck brewing. I am a fan of building budget friendlier decks. I also don't win as often. My playgroup is much more experienced than I am. So I am asking, is spending the money on big cards like Mana Crypt, and Jeweled Lotus worth it? Let me know what you think.
Jewled Lotus is a trap card in a lot of decks for it's $$$$ amount. I am not saying it is a bad card that would be a lie; but it is not an auto include in every commander deck it can become a dead card even in cedh. Jewled Lotus is best when leveraged in the correct decks and that is not auto included in every cedh deck should tell you something about that card when cedh is a fast mana game.
Fast mana period helps; Mana crypt is a great card but that's at least $80 bucks and if that and sol ring are your only fast mana then you are spending big money on a small upgrade to the mana base.
Fast mana always helps and you can start with talisman and signets they are cheaper and a lot of your other 2 cost mana rocks Thought Vessel just reprinted so it's a $1.50 cards like Fellwar Stone are examples of classic fast 2 mana rocks.
Now if you want a mana crypt go right ahead it is at $80 vs the previous $100+ and it will eventually go back up unless they reprint it again next year.
Just realize that you need more than those for fast mana and that does not even count fetch lands that help mana fixing or even shocklands etc type lands that do not come in tapped and fix mana
December 27, 2020 5:21 p.m.
They are both great in the right decks. But I'd streamline the deck before spending the money for them - IMHO.
By streamlining a deck i mean the following:
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your deck is focused on what it wants to do. With maybe one sub theme (two if they all overlap). If your deck doesn't have a focus (even if it's a for fun deck), it won't work as intended.
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have your mana base set up to perform consistently. You need to hit all your color requirements early - by ramp/fixings. This can be done with higher end lands such as shock and fetches, but also low casting cost ramp such as the signet, talismans, Three Wishes, birds of paradise, etc. If you come to turn 4/5 and are missing a color, you're not gonna win. In most decks ramp that cost 3 or more is not gonna work as well. Chromatic Lantern being one of the exceptions for budget reasons.
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drop your average converted mana cost. Doing this makes your deck run quicker in early game, which means there will be less hands were you don't have a play due to not having enough mana. Below 3.5 without counting lands is a good goal. Now there are decks that run great on higher, but they are going to be running a lot of ramp in order to play them, or have ways of cheating them into play. In those decks the below 3.5 rule won't apply. And depending on your play group, under 3 might be the goal. The lower to the ground the deck is, the easier it is to play multiple spells each turn. Whether they advance your board or slow your opponents down, your odds of winning increase with the more good cost efficient spells you can cast.
I say the above is my opinion based on average decks. Budget decks can win games against non budget decks, they just need interaction such as counter spells, spot removal, and board wipes. And all decks need card draw in abundance, I've see too many decks that don't run enough card draw. 6 or more card advantage cards (cards that will more than just replace the card that you just played). And I prefer repeatable card draw like Greed to most one time burst spells like Stroke of Genius. But burst spells have their place also.
With all rules in magic, there are exceptions to any deck building rules (suggestion).
December 27, 2020 8:04 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #5
It's better to have card as opposed to not having a card. Proxies are your friend; find a group that wants to play against you and elevate you as a player not just beat on your wallet. You can win games on a budget but it'll be more of an uphill battle and not having certain cards in your deck could lead to losses that could of been wins.
December 27, 2020 9:16 p.m.
I play the decks I have posted on tapped out. My Kamabl deck is my favorite to play. I've recently learned that my lack of card draw has held me back.
I have only played with a small group I've met at work. Over the course of a year I've learned a lot. I'm always looking to learn more.
I assumed that a lot of big money cards will help, but how often. Thanks is for the feedback.
December 27, 2020 10:48 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #7
3devils so, when it comes to higher priced cards you may not notice an immediate impact but it'll be there.
A lot of players typically don't see the value in fetches. Why are these cards so expensive and why do they hold their value?
A fetch isn't just thinning.
With cards that gather information like Sensei's Divining Top or Brainstorm a player is able to make a decision that could very well put them in a winning position because they're able to manipulate their deck according to the information.
Expensive rocks like Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt may seem absurdly expensive. But a turn 1 yisan, urza or selvala will have your opponents picking up their cards. Additionally, they expedite slower combos too.
But at the end of the day just have fun with game. Proxies are a wonderful thing and the barrier to entry for a competitive deck is both getting cheaper and more expensive at the same time.
December 28, 2020 5:45 a.m.
In any format, the secret to upgrading your deck is to start with the most impactful cards first, and that often does not include any cards over $50. They give a very small benefit for their price and should be the last things you add. Rather than getting five $50 cards, you could've gotten 25 $10 cards, 1/4th of your entire deck, and gotten a much larger benefit to its overall quality.
So before buying cards like Jeweled Lotus it might be a good idea to identify other underperforming cards in your deck and replace them with pricier-but-not-that-pricy cards that will do the best possible job in that slot. Once you're there, you can start getting the super pricey cards that offer only a relatively small benefit.
Also worth noting that while some cards will give you a huge benefit, if you're playing a 100 card format you're not usually going to get them every game, and so it's also often better to get a larger amount of cards for your money which ensures you actually see the newer cards more often, and that you're cutting as many bad cards from your deck as possible.
December 28, 2020 9:28 a.m.
looks like you already got plenty of advice on this topic
so here's a little game i like to play
(My collection is organized in binders by color,type, then cmc just for this)
take the cards you already own don't over look the jank 25 cent cards
then lay your deck out by cmc and types
first part is easy just look at your permanent to spell ratio and see if there is an off balance. are you permanent heavy and lacking responses ? or are you spell heavy and so busy responding that your not building a board state?
next look over your mana curve most commander decks run a 3-4 cmc average
since you may not be able to afford 3k in a land/rock base to support this, see if you can lower your cmc average to around 2 by replacing cards with similar effects but lower casting costs
then of course don't forget the lands and check your color balance. you might be surprised how often you could pull out a etb tapped duel land for a basic
then finally check for synergy does each card work with at least 5 other cards in your deck or is it only good with 1 other card?
i refer to this as a game because fine tuning a deck with the cards you already own is like building a puzzle so many peaces can fit so many different ways but there is only one combination that is optimal for your deck
you would be surprised how well a tuned deck will perform even without turn 1 rocks
December 28, 2020 2:01 p.m.
Tuning a deck like Ramble described will also help your decks more than just throwing expensive ramp at them will. Focusing on ramp won't really help a deck that is struggling for other reasons. Ramp and card draw are always something to try and fit with what you are doing with your deck, as sometimes more narrow effects will give you what you want without the increased price.
December 28, 2020 2:17 p.m.
Your commander choice and choice in win condition/strategy will carry you further dime for dime than even the most cost efficient additions to your 99. So if you want to take games off veteran players that are more invested than you, you should choose the commander options that win games nearly on their own.
Commanders like Omnath, Locus of Rage and Muldrotha, the Gravetide are terrors at true casual tables because there is no such thing as a bad Omnath, Locus of Rage deck. A deck of literally 50 mountains and 50 forests can win games at casual tables with this commander.
I'd say go ahead and invest into Mana Crypt if you can though. It probably isn't going to get reprinted again at the rate it was this year. I bought 5 or 6 this year because I honestly think they're just going to increase.
December 28, 2020 8:30 p.m.
i told myself i wasn't going to comment on Jeweled Lotus but now i'm board and there are no new topics or comments to respond to
personal opinion - i feel its a waist of a card.
at first glance it seems amazing to fast play your commander, so whats optimal fast play ? getting a 4 cmc commander on turn 1
to start probabilities in edh are easy to figure out, you have 99 cards in your deck so to do the math round off to 100 cards 100/100 is 1% per card
so just rounding off probability of getting 1 specific card in your open hand is 7% (because 7 cards), probably on turn 1 is 8% (because 8 cards after you draw), each card you draw increases the chance of getting the card you need by 1% (Rounded Off) this is why card vantage has a major impact
so chance that you get to use this on your opening play is 8% at best
now the average competitive deck is built with 1/3rd responses, that's 33/99 = 3% chance per card that it is some form of counter or removal, 7 cards opening hand 21% chance, if they had their turn before you they now have a 24% chance
now 7% vs 24% in it self doesn't sound great but what is worse is you have to account that you have 3 opponents
so... to stop my rambling and getting to the point, if you get lucky enough or mulligan enough to beat the odds and blast out your commander on turn 1 there is about a 75% chance (rounded off) it will be back in the box on turn 2
which makes this card a terrible turn 1 play
so the only value left is later in the game to assist with commander tax, to me this feels like a waist of a card slot, because later in the game you should already have enough mana to cover the tax
December 29, 2020 12:07 p.m.
p.s. Mana Crypt is a completely different story
if if you do turn 1 it, most players will not respond to it because they would rather save there responses for an actual threat (like a commander hitting the board)
also it is fully capable of advancing your board state if played on any turn
im not saying its good enough to just be crammed in any and every deck, but if you have one and you have alot of in your casting costs, it would be silly not to use it.
December 29, 2020 12:34 p.m.
Well I took some advice and bought some stuff at my local card shop, added 4-5 cards in the 10-20 dollar range. I can say I was able to see an improvement in the mechanics of my gameplay. thanks for the advice.
I'll eventually trade into a mana crypt.
Dromar39 says... #2
Firstly, what deck/s you play.
December 27, 2020 4:48 p.m.