New Sisay seems to be really slow and low impact. She's an outlet for having infinite mana of all colours, but I think casting her for value is so weak that it's probably not worth it.

Im not complaining or anything, im just curious what puts Selvala, Explorer Returned in the tier that she's in? I have a selvala deck EVERYBODY PARL(T)AY (which is open to comments/suggestions as i take it from stax to elfball combo) that seems to do quite well with some of the top tier commanders here, as my playgroup runs food chain with proshh, lockout Zur, and op kess.

Just curious though, is it the 2 colors making her slower? Or?

Where would you put the new urza

Where would you put the new urza

@Winterblast I agree she is on the slower side, compared to the ones on the max power list. I think she would be decent as a stax/combo commander though. Start her off as stax then when you get your combo started you can combo off by putting her out and starting a value chain. Just a thought. Someone better at deckbuilding than me might break her but at least as superfriends combo I've tested her out with a proxy and she did better than Atraxa of the same archetype.

@davidsays1 Selvala (while close to my own heart) is a great, strong deck that can win through some stax (though is shut out by the most prevalent in the format - Suppression Field , Cursed Totem , Null Rod ). Despite this the deck's really quite strong - I'm not sure the amount of play-testing that's been recorded by avid fans of the deck, but innately the card gives card advantage as it plays.

Having a combo piece in the command zone like Thrasios / Ishkana wins the game and can provide utility during the game without aiding your opponents. I believe the referenced Selvala list uses stax in order to make the additional card per turn seem a lot less relevant and allows you to use her as a grinding engine from the zone. Due to Selvala's aid to opposing decks I'd guess that's why she's not considered the most competitive, despite the power that she has.

If you'd like to change that then by all means go for it! Maybe your decklist performs better than the one posted. Some Reddit posts such as the Shimmer-zur 100 opening hands (I think that's the one) show the strength and consistency of the deck. You should be able to find some good ideas on ways you could 'prove' your build (and therefore Selvala's strength) worthy of a higher tier.

There's other ways to promote your deck also, but in the Elfball strat' I'd suggest trying Yisan, the Wanderer Bard as it not only balls more efficiently, it also uses a compact stax-package that helps you to close out games without the need to draw opponents additional cards (or if you're cool, try the listed Yeva, Nature's Herald - that deck is mono spice).

Hello!

Just a rookie commander player here! Out of curiosity, how did you come to the decision of having Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle as "High Power?" I mean as advantageous as it is, I see it as a Simic alternative to something like Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma, which is in Mid Power.

Is having Arixmethes as a land and having access to blue that much more significant?

Is it really a good trade off having something that taps blue&green once per turn versus something that reduces mana cost for creatures all the time?

Commander_JAR This is a list comprised of "Competitive EDH" placements for generals, rather than your standard 'EDH'; for more information I believe that the cEDH reddit will be able to give you the brief guide on the difference between the two far better than I. https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/wiki/index#wiki_faq This has all of the information you'll need on the differences.

On the other hand, assuming that you know the difference and are still curious, the basic response to your argument is: having access to additional colours and a general who works well for storm (ie: untap creature/land spells) is strictly better than most mono-green generals (with a few notable exceptions). It's strictly better as it offers more relevant application, a better arsenal of stronger cards that can be used, and access to more relevant combos (ie: flash-hulk)

Oh RIGHT Storm! I forgot about that!Thanks, CyborgAeon!

Earlier I had suggested a deck-list for Prime Speaker Vannifar , but I didn't have a lot of data on how the deck performs. Also I saw that you don't have an accepted deck-list for it...
Here is the decklist:
Vannifar cEDH
Here is the data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tpI4PWrcXqoSMy_l3oxXQCAr82eI4-1Y8X3pZJdpF9M/edit?usp=sharing

goconnor

You played 50 games and won 40? I mean I am absolutely not flagging this as BS, but that data is haaaaard to believe bro......

FYI in 1v1 (Duels) Van is banned rendering a lot of the data nullified regardless of it's awesome stats.

Furthermore, there is not 1 game where you have sat down with 3 opponents in a god tier FFA in that data set, so it is kind of meaningless here I'm sorry to say.

So, I gotta say thanks for this resource, the only way to really balance EDH is to squish the power level to max, otherwise it's a bit of a farce, STILL FUN, but fascicle non the less.

This list and linked primers has paved the way for countless hours of tight, nail-biting drama and my pod and I are extremely grateful.

We pretty much agree with the list except for one thing, Godo...... Sorry to bring it up again, I did read the comments above. Like, in a sea of decks built without budget restrictions (a lot of re sleeving happens) Godo fights, and wins regularly enough, not a notable win rate % either way, he just sits there and goes toe to toe with Najeela, yissan, kess, PST builds....... We goldfished the deck to get a feel for it and it does feel underwhelming, but in open play, it is surprising. We can't even put out finger on it, it just finds a way to win despite the odds. I recommend you sleeve it up dudes and give it a full test drive, it's brutal!!!! Don't mean to open another debate, and TBH I respect everyone's opinion greatly, but yah, godo works against meta decks well :)

I’ve seen queen combo off very quickly sometimes, admittedly yes 5c cmc can be challenging at times but you can run plenty of options and fixing, I saw a list before but unfortunately I can’t find it as I don’t remember who posted it but it’s certainly tier 2 potential

goconnor

Not saying I'm an expert on this commander but... For all the data i'm seeing is that most games are 1 vs 1?

We have 2 players in our LGS that almost run the same list as you but they get killed really easy in a Multiplayer setting. I'm talking shimmer zur,Gitrogh monster,CVT,Najeela Tempo kind of decks, most are Full blown non budget decks.

Not here to diss or disrespect you just seems far fetched.

I want to believe you won 30 games of the 40 but i just can't. Seeing that these decks in my LGS run so bad in multiplayer. Bad Pilots who knows got some video's or something ?

@Fuzzbox, goconnor, Alexrb19

CyborgAeon

Thanks for the reply man! That makes a lot of sense and I agree with almost everything you said. Godo is nice because casual players can pick the deck up and compete immediately. Not sure of another deck that can boast this. However the fact that it’s easy to play shouldn’t be factored in. Snobbish players see that as a reason to dislike it.

When I watch a godo win, it’s either break neck nut draw, or, sneaks up as the decks packing interactive heat cancel each other out. the deck needs a sniff of an opening and it’s GG. I understand it doesn’t pack the raw power of other decks in the meta, but in that vacuum for weird reasons it holds its own. It benefits from being less powerful!?!?!? The other decks in the meta just aren’t good at being constantly primed to stop a 0 card combat combo that can punch through blockers.

Having said all that, you’ve made me feel at peace that he’s sitting where he belongs in the competitive tier hahaha.

Are you sure Jazal Goldmane belongs in "Mid Power" when Ezuri, Renegade Leader is in "High Power"?

They are extremely similar, you could even argue Jazal is stronger due to the lack of a tribal restriction and more power for the same mana cost. (downside being not granting trample, but white has plenty of flyers anyway).

Sephyrias

Let’s not forget regenerate...... Built protection from wipes propped up by green’s big mana virtues. Built in protection from the biggest problem the deck faces is HUGE. On that note, Ezuri doesn’t need a wide board to be relevant. Another thing to add to @n0bunga’s comment is that green has so many creature tutors and ability to draw cards. Jazal is a total dude though, can’t bring to take him out of my cats duels deck, gonna have to now they printing some more changelings.

So, with the release of Modern Horizons I do believe Teferi has to move down to just "Competitive". Urza Clearly has taken the Tier 1 Mono Blue slot.

IE: Urza Feeling Lucky - cEDH Primer #1 Mono Blue

For the Decklist Database in this Tier List's description, can someone explain to me the difference between the Primary Database and the Fringe Database?

MH1 Update

This is our update for Modern Horizons. Please note that these placements are preliminary and will be subject to change over time. Please continue commenting and giving us feedback as you play with these cards so we can re-evaluate their position on the list for future updates.

Why are Thrasios and Tymna above everything else?

Approximately 30 months have gone by since the release of Commander 2016, and it's high time that we say with confidence that Thrasios, Triton Hero paired with Tymna the Weaver are powerful enough to warrant their own tier. The raw power of the card advantage of the pair, the combo potential enabled by Thrasios as the single best infinite mana outlet on a Commander, and the vast card pool of four-color translate to the unparalleled ubiquity of T&T in the higher power levels of Commander play.

Here is a short summary of the reasoning behind this analysis:

• The general flexibility of having two draw engines in the Command Zone gives immense openness to the strategy one may play beneath them. Every strategy wishes to draw cards and desires the consistency that additional card advantage offers from the Command Zone. This pushes out diversity in higher power environments, as it eclipses the (often weaker) niche advantages a more narrow synergy commander might contribute to a deck or strategy.

• The Partner mechanic allowing for two commanders in the command zone offers additional advantage before the game begins with the Partner player starting with an additional card they have access to. For T&T, this means an extremely consistent early curve available, which enables flexible mulligan keeps and options for divergence, as well as early board presence to stifle combat aggro (and other Tymna players). With commander tax being treated as separate for both commanders, it is difficult to interact by removing either of the low-cost T&T pair, as the other will be in untaxed reserve to rebuild from removal; additionally, the second casts of both commanders are easy to achieve, especially if the first casts have accrued any value while on board. Tertiarily, two cards in the Command Zone means that their 98 card decks are slightly more consistent than a 99 card deck.

• Thrasios is, bar none, the strongest Command Zone infinite mana outlet in the format. Unlike many others, he only requires colorless mana to go infinite. His value-activation case coupled with his low cost is much stronger than his direct competition, as his activations bank the best of two cards, with the possibility of direct ramp (which snowballs his activation potential). He notably is a 1/3, which blocks Tymna (a centralizing interaction) and is two powerful, supported types being a Merfolk Wizard.

• Tymna is an exceedingly powerful draw engine, drawing between 1 and 3 cards a turn if one is able to connect with any opponents. She creates a centralizing mini-game centered around engaging with her mechanic in bids to prevent draws, quickly flooding the pilot with insurmountable advantage if left unchecked, while being a losing proposition to spend cards answering, as she's not vital to the win conditions of the decks that play her. She punishes the entire pod if any player is playing a creature-light strategy.

Overall, the pair has shown to have centralizing effect on metagames that contain multiple T&T decks, and cripple commander diversity -- both in the scope of what is viable to stand up against them, and in the deck-brewing process, in which the force of "why not T&T?" is a suffocating question to attempt to answer.

Their general power has exceeded the ability of counter-meta forces to balance out the strongest and most aggressive decks. Having both the tools to win the game quickly and efficiently (Thrasios, Hulk) and being the best picks to grind out of interaction and stax (Tymna & Thrasios draw) make them essentially the default picks for maximizing win rate.

This is all for now. We'll be back soon with another update.

"options for divergence" in a redless build? They're still constrained by colour identity. :^)

Addendum:

Pir, Imaginative Rascal & Toothy, Imaginary Friend have been moved from Mid Power to High Power. Pir & Toothy represents a powerful draw engine in a color combination suitable to utilize it to solid gain.

Pir Imagination

WELL SINCE NO ONE IS SAYING ANYTHING.

I fully agree with the tier movement. T&T as a pair is generally the strongest thing to be doing in a vacuum, and they offer so many different, extremely relevant advantages and benefits at generally null deck constraints or concessions.

It's less so that the deck cannot be innately beaten, and it's more that they simply offer more than other commanders and the comparison isn't close. It's created somewhat of an optimization singularity where many commanders/strategies either don't measure up, or just outright benefit from being led by T&T.

I think they have now overall severely limit cEDH deck building and brewing with regards to actually viable strategies, and the listed reasons entail the paradigm well.

I agree that T + T are extremely strong, but I also believe that their presence has narrowed down and really helped to optimize the decks and commanders that pull their own weight against them. The Tainted Shimmer Zur lists are downright devastating, as are the new Urza and Food Chain Sliver lists emerging right now. In several playgroups in my area (NYC), Tainted Shimmer Zur leads Razakats, Shuffle Hulk, and MAD Farm in terms of win-rates by a sizable margin. While I do agree that they can homogenize sometimes, I also think that their influence has helped to really push some of the other decks to the next level in order to keep up.