How is the stack used with Gravepact and a sac outlet

Asked by squittron 7 years ago

If I have Grave Pact out with a sac outlet like Viscera Seer and Nether Traitor and I sac my Nether Traitor, what comes first one the stack or in other words will resolve last, the scry or the Grave Pact trigger?And when the Grave Pact resolves, can I trigger my Nether Traitor? Is this a soft combo as a boardwipe?

Thanks in advance.

squittron says... #1

Ignore the last question, Nether Traitor is your graveyard, I misread

December 22, 2016 6:50 a.m.

Boza says... #2

You get to choose in which order these effects resolve, since you control both triggers and they occur simultaneously.

December 22, 2016 6:54 a.m.

Epidilius says... Accepted answer #3

In this example, here is what happens:

1) You declare that you are going to activate Viscera Seer's ability. The Scry 1 goes onto the stack.

2) You pay the cost for Viscera Seer's ability (sacrifice a creature). Nether Traitor is now in the graveyard.

3) The Grave Pact trigger goes onto the stack

4) Each opponent sacrifices a creature.

5) You Scry 1. The stack is now empty.

December 22, 2016 7:05 a.m.

Boza says... #4

Epidilius, not entirely correct. When you activate an ability and pay any costs for it, you do not add anything to the stack. During the payment process, no state-based actions are checked and nothing is added to the stack. Only after all payments are done does the game check if anything has triggered in the meantime.

So, both effects want to be put on the stack at the same time - after Viscera Seer's cost are paid.

December 22, 2016 7:26 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #5

Boza That is incorrect and because of there being so much dispute I am going to need to sight lots of rules so bear with me here.

The process for activating abilities is outlined in 602 in the comprehensive rules. Notably 602.2a states:

602.2a The player announces that he or she is activating the ability. If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. That ability is created on the stack as an object thats not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who activated the ability. The ability remains on the stack until its countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.

The next step in activating abilities says to follow the rest of the process for casting a spell. Which brings you to rule 601.2. Once you get to 601.2h you are going to be paying the cost of the ability by sacrificing the creature and Grave Pact will trigger. Once you get to 601.2i a player will receive priority and the trigger will go on the stack above the activated ability.

603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered abilitys trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesnt do anything at this point.


603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object thats not a card the next time a player would receive priority.

December 22, 2016 7:48 a.m.

BlueScope says... #6

Gidgetimer is correct, and Epidilius explains things correctly - yet I find important that Grave Pact triggers when the ability is activated, but is only put on the stack when the process of activating the ability is completed.
Also, technically, not "Scry 1" goes on the stack, but the activated ability that will let you Scry 1 on resolution is; you may argue that those are one and the same...

@Boza: What you're talking about is multiple triggered abilities - for example, if you also controlled a Dictate of Erebos, both Pact and Dictate would trigger when sacrificing the creature to activate Viscera Seer's ability, and when they're put on the stack, you get to decide the order in which they're put on the stack.

December 22, 2016 8:09 a.m.

Epidilius says... #7

BlueScope, I was in the middle of writing up something along the lines of "Yeah, I know, but it worked to get the point across" when I scrolled up to check the rules. Now, I wonder if it is actually "Scry 1" that goes onto the stack.

From 602.2a:

"That ability is created on the stack as an object thats not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics."

You have an object whose only characteristic is the text "Scry 1". What do you think?

December 22, 2016 8:37 a.m.

squittron says... #8

Thanks for you answers, but with your explanation a new question popped up. Following the steps of Epidilius. Say I have Altar of Dementia instead of Viscera Seer and I want to activate it, but have no creatures to sac, then it stills comes on the stack if I understand you correctly? And it will then fizzle. Am I correct?

December 22, 2016 9:15 a.m.

Epidilius says... #9

Not quite. If you realize you performed an illegal action, you just undo it. However, there are limitations. One of these pertains to Altar of Dementia:

"Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled."

Basically, if you say "I use Altar of Dementia to make you mill 10 cards!" one of these things happens:

  • You sacrifice a creature(s) with power ten
  • You or an opponent says "Wait a minute..." and you "Undo" everything (in this case basically nothing)
  • Your opponent mills 10, then one of you realizes what just happened, and they are stuck with 10 less card in their library, and you will probably be penalized in some way (if you're just playing with friends, whatever, let them put the 10 back on top of their library)

This gets more complicated if you say "I use Altar of Dementia to make you mill 10 cards!" which is responded to with a "Stifle," then you play Counterspell, and someone else sacrifices a Cursecatcher, another Stifle is played, the Simic player flashes in a creature with no effects, then ooh look a Mana Drain is countering Stifle (what a waste)! Then someone else says "Wait a minute..." In this case, everyone untaps their lands, returns the cards they used to their hands, the Cursecatcher is returned to the field (if it was tapped, it returns tapped), and reverse any other things that happened. Except for the Simic player, because he did something that was not affected by your illegal action.

Here is the full text of 717.1 if you're interested:

If a player realizes that he or she cant legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasnt reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.
December 22, 2016 9:35 a.m.

Gidgetimer says... #10

Wow you guys are making the second scenario entirely too complex. Sacrificing a creature is part of the cost of activating Altar of Dementia.

602.2. To activate an ability is to put it onto the stack and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Only an objects controller (or its owner, if it doesnt have a controller) can activate its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise. Activating an ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the activation of an ability, a player is unable to comply with any of those steps, the activation is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that ability started to be activated (see rule 720, Handling Illegal Actions). Announcements and payments cant be altered after theyve been made.

"If, at any point during the activation of an ability, a player is unable to comply with any of those steps, the activation is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that ability started to be activated" is the important part of that rule. If you do not have a creature to sacrifice then the game returns to the moment before you attempted to activate Altar of Dementia and therefore; as far as the game is concerned, nothing was ever put on the stack.

December 22, 2016 11:23 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #11

The key point is that a triggered ability will trigger whenever the appropriate event happens, but will wait to be put onto the stack until the next time a player gets priority. In your example, Grave Pact triggers when you sacrifice a creature to Viscera Seer. You get priority again once you've finished the activation process for Seer's ability and put it onto the stack. This means the Grave Pact trigger will be put onto the stack on top of Seer's activated ability. Grave Pact will resolve first.

December 22, 2016 noon Edited.

BlueScope says... #12

@Epidilius: Scry is a keyword action, which only describes what an effect does. The object on the stack is the actual ability. You can think of it as a container for all effects, and "Scry 1" being the only effect is no different from a spelled-out effect, except that it's a keyword action. As I said, though, it's primarily a matter of definition, and the only way I can think it would ever matter is if the source of an effect is relevant, for example for effects that care about a source's color. While none of that could ever apply to scrying, the game doesn't look at what an effect does to determine what kind of object it is - instead, it's always the same kind of object if created a certain way (an activated ability will always be an activated ability), while it's description tells you what it does on resolution.

December 22, 2016 5:27 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #13

@BlueScope: The distinction/correction you're trying to make here isn't worthwhile. Yes, what you're saying does use all the proper technical vocabulary, but there's nothing technically inaccurate or otherwise wrong with Epidilius' original way of stating it. Picking it apart in this way will only confuse other readers into thinking there's a rules-meaningful distinction between the two concepts.

December 23, 2016 11:57 a.m.

BlueScope says... #14

@Rhadamanthus: I agree, and I somewhat tried to state the same thing in the original post where I mentioned it; my last post was a direct reply to Epidilius's question. I also mentioned above that the explanation was sufficiently accurate.

I suppose it could make a difference if a player really differentiates between activated abilities and keyword actions in a way that would make them argue that Stifle can't counter this ability, because it's only a keyword action, not an activated ability. Which of course is wrong.

December 23, 2016 8:28 p.m.

PayOneLife says... #15

To answer the second of the OP's questions, you don't have a 'soft combo' in this scenario. Nether Traitor says "whenever another creature is put into your graveyard", so the trigger does not occur from Nether Traitor itself dying.

December 24, 2016 11:36 p.m.

This discussion has been closed