What do you say when it's impossible to say anything nice?
TappedOut forum
Posted on Sept. 5, 2016, 4:31 p.m. by Siyanor
Yes, yes, I know, "Don't say anything if you can't say anything nice." That doesn't help, though. Not saying anything is, at least in theory, far less useful than brusquely-toned criticism. Well, I am a very brusque person, and for whatever reason people seem to be unable to look past my tone to see the content of my posts. So, my question is, how can I fix that or should I even bother to try?
mathimus55 says... #3
ThisIsBullshit said it pretty well. There often isn't very much separation when people are arguing things that they "think," between what they "feel." If you are able to differentiate between the two it will certainly help not just deck critiquing but also life in general.
Tell someone how you feel backed up by personal experience such as "I feel Searing Blaze isn't the best card for the deck because I have had it underperform for me in the past"
Tell someone how you think based on evidence like saying "I think Searing Blaze isn't right here because you aren't running any fetchlands to help trigger it."
There is a very big difference between the two statements and the intention behind them.
September 5, 2016 4:54 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #4
Constructive criticism.
You're wasting your time by saying something like "This deck isn't either fun or good."
Why isn't it fun? Fun is subjective, so just because it's not fun to you doesn't mean someone else doesn't find it fun. Why don't you find it fun?
Why isn't it good? Give suggestions for changes and improvements, while keeping in mind the deck builder's constraints, goals, and personal preference if available. Being competitive is not the goal of every deck.
Taking a look through some of your recent posts, you come across with the attitude that you're always right. Whether or not you you intend for this, that's how I read it and how I imagine others did too.
Being constructive and taking away the attitude of always being right - whether you are in fact right or not - will help you a lot.
September 5, 2016 4:58 p.m.
McSleuthburger says... #6
With most decks people make, they will have a special connection with it because it is something they specifically created themselves. It kinda sucks when a random person just kinda bashes on something you make without really explaining why. People may interpret the same thing different ways. So while you see something as helpful, others may see it as rather blunt and not really see the helpful side of it.
My best suggestion would be just try to explain why you think x is better than y
September 5, 2016 5:09 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit I try to be general for precisely the reason that I don't understand their exact position and goals. Would it be better to skip the general advice try to ascertain position and goals first, and then provide specific advice?
mathimus55 I absolutely do not understand your post at all. I see no difference whatsoever in the intention of those two sentences. Perhaps that's why I have such an issue with this, though. What exactly is the difference, and how can I tell?
ducttapedeckbox You've just done precisely what I'm trying to avoid: You read my posts, extracted my tone from them, and completely ignored their content.
McSleuthburger Of course they see it as blunt. It is blunt. What prevents people from seeing something as both blunt and helpful?
September 5, 2016 5:55 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #8
Siyanor your delivery is incredibly harsh and sharp. Your intent of possibly trying to help doesn't come across and it just sounds rude.
My original message was about the objective vs subjective statements. Objective statements are based off of fact and reason where subjective statements are emotions and experiences. To point to a specific example, your statement about the deck being "not fun" is a subjective thought. You may not find the deck fun, but others might. I personally don't enjoy playing control, but if I were to say "control decks are boring" wouldn't necessarily be true. Other people might find control decks engaging and fun. But if I were to make a statement like that and treat it like fact and objective then I would indeed be wrong. Which is probably why when you said that deck wasn't fun or good the decks owner rightfully would get frustrated. You essentially said their feelings are wrong, which is both impossible to prove and rude. You may not find a deck fun but that doesn't mean someone else isn't allowed to enjoy it.
I would definitely take a step back from how you deliver your messages and see how you can soften them. If you tried saying those things about my deck I would have had a similar reaction too. You may not intend to sound like a jerk but your delivery on the decks comments certainly did. Does that mean you're a jerk? Not at all. But your comments certainly weren't inviting
September 5, 2016 6:06 p.m.
It seemed pretty clear to me that the deck was not even intended to be fun. I cannot imagine absolutely anyone choosing to play Deathgaze Cockatrice for fun factor. Now, of course, if the deck also had Malakir Familiar in it, I could possibly say that this person likes playing deathtouch flyers. But that wasn't the case. It had a deathtouch flyer that both 1) is inarguably inferior in quality and 2) possesses no visible qualities of "funness."
September 5, 2016 6:13 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #10
Not visible to you, but that doesn't make it non existent. If something like this actually bothers you like this I think you might want to work on how you communicate with others in general. You are treating your feelings like facts that all should operate under. It is not your deck, therefore why are you allowed to tell someone how to play? Just because you don't like Deathgaze Cockatrice Doesn't mean there isn't a reason altogether. Your opinion is not fact, and your treating it as such is why you come across rude, blunt and honeslty, a little unpleasant to be around. Magic means something different to everyone. Imposing your intentions and desires for the game is not a way to get people to listen to you.
September 5, 2016 6:22 p.m.
You come across as extremely rude to me because you are repeatedly insisting that I treat my feelings as facts when, in fact, I have never done so. No one likes Deathgaze Cockatrice. It is not a likable card. That is a fact. If anyone, anyone anywhere in the world, chooses to play that card and not a better or more fun card, the only possibilities are 1) That person is unaware of better or more fun cards or 2) That particular individual has a personal attachment to that card due to personal life experiences that is deeply ingrained in them and cannot possibly ever be expected to be understood by anyone without explicitly mentioning it.
September 5, 2016 6:29 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #12
Yea, at this point you obviously aren't listening. So I'm just going to stop here.
September 5, 2016 6:34 p.m.
andymaul123 says... #14
@ OP
I think the real issue here is that you're an asshole hiding behind the word "brusque" as if it were a virtue. Your syntax, vocabulary, and grammatical structure are all fine. It's not an issue of your delivery; it's an issue with your content and intent.
Being technically correct does not give you a free pass to act condescending (see how taking the time to italicize words affects the connotation of the sentence?) or to belittle. You also don't get to choose what's "fun" for other players, so let's also nip that right in the bud.
The bottom line is that when you go to comment on someone's deck or post, take a moment to reflect on whether you're interested in actually helping that person or proving someone wrong to make yourself feel better.
September 5, 2016 6:38 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #15
I did not ignore their content. I addressed the issue in the posts, which is your tone. Your suggestions are fine, but your delivery is poor.
It's always good to grasp the backstory to a deck - maybe it's not meant to be competitive, or maybe they/their playgroup has imposed limits that affect the deck. I'll give two examples from my own experience:
I was against using Infect in my Nekusar, the Mindrazer EDH deck for a long time. Here are two (paraphrased) comments that I received:
Comment 1: "This deck is bad without infect or the ability to combo off"
Comment 2: "Have you purposefully excluded Phyresis and Glistening Oil? They would make your deck much more lethal, effective, and competitive."
I think it's clear which one would be better received.
Another paraphrased example is running a card for flavor or personal reasons:
Comment 1: "Nicol Bolas is useless, he'll just get removed."
Comment 2: "Is there a reason why Nicol Bolas is in here? He is unlikely to survive to swing on your next turn, so his spot might be better allocated to a spell that will survive."
In both cases, the first comment follows the tone of your posts. Direct, blunt, and rather rude. The second two convey the same information but have a very different tone.
Now apply this to one of your recent comments regarding Norn's Annex:
- "Norn's Annex is pretty useless TBH. Your win con is not damage so they just pay life pretty freely."
It's a valid point. The Annex is not an optimal choice, but the delivery isn't great. Something like this might be better received:
- "I don't think Norn's Annex is effective here. You're not doing any damage to compliment the life loss, so they can easily pay for it. Another prison enchantment like Ghostly Prison or Sphere of Safety might be more effective."
I hope this makes sense and can help you get better reception with your posts. Again, the content is fine. You make some good points, but the way you convey your ideas is what's causing the negative feedback.
September 5, 2016 6:38 p.m. Edited.
andymaul123 If you think that, then you're wrong.
ducttapedeckbox The way you didn't convey your ideas at all initially is what caused my inability to understand why you bothered to post at all. Conversely, I understand all of the sentences in your recent post, whether blunt or not. Clearly you aren't very good at delivery either.
September 5, 2016 6:47 p.m.
andymaul123 says... #17
Siyanor Something tells me I'm not. For your sake I hope it's because you're young, and not due to a crippling lack of social awareness or empathy. Either way, good luck out there bud.
September 5, 2016 6:51 p.m.
Actually, it is due to a crippling lack of social awareness or empathy. I'm autistic.
September 5, 2016 6:54 p.m.
andymaul123 says... #19
If that's the case, I would suggest looking outside of tappedout.com to help grow and refine those life skills. I don't think the general forum-goer is equipped to address the root cause of your issues. Like I said, best of luck.
September 5, 2016 7:11 p.m.
BTW, the comment "Norn's Annex is pretty useless TBH. Your win con is not damage so they just pay life pretty freely." was perfectly well received. The user even thanked me for my advice.
September 5, 2016 7:15 p.m.
Siyanor, yep, reading this thread I was thinking that would be the case.
I don't really have any great advice except that you are probably asking the wrong audience. I don't know, and probably no-one here really knows how to help you properly. This is particularly true if none of the answers above made any sense to you.
From my limited understanding, you will need to train yourself to do things which make no sense to you, and you may even need to get feedback on how you area going because you may not be able to judge it yourself.
September 5, 2016 7:15 p.m.
Honestly just say what you know and if they reject your advice it's their loss, they will hopefully be punished by losing. If they accept the advice give more.
September 5, 2016 7:17 p.m.
Ok, perhaps I am asking the wrong audience, then. I only had any sort of understanding ThisIsBullshit's comment, and even with that I'm still waiting for a response from him to make sure I did understand it.
September 5, 2016 7:18 p.m.
If you cant say anything nice, go for witty and devistating instead.
Now I will admit to sometimes being rude, normally due to posting from phone and not having the time to explain to someone why CoCo with 12 targets or Brainstorm without fetches or city lands and not fetchs/duals is a bad idea. But that also comes down to basic understanding of maths so.
When people do seem to genuinely not know or the deck isnt design for competative I do try and make the effort to choose my words carefully.
September 5, 2016 7:22 p.m.
Yeah that's what you really have to gage. There's a difference between someone who's saying in the description that they hope they will have a good matchup with jund and someone who doesn't want to spend more than the 50 dollars they've already spent. I think the important thing is, once somebody rejects your advice, there a very few cases where it's a good idea to then try to debate them further. They've decided you're wrong, it's over. Later on, through actual playing, they will likely see the reality of the situation, but until then the best thing you can do is chuckle and move on.
Thinking of a midrange modern deck I saw today, somebody posted a lengthy critique about how he had just been to a GP, and that the deck in question was not well positioned in the current modern meta, (ie: that it would lose to a bunch of different aggro decks,) he offered solutions, encouragement, and literally the guy just responded with, "no, I have a good matchup against aggro decks, my kitchen table trying has proven this, I will change nothing." It's kind of sad that people don't want to accept reality but... That's just how it is.
September 5, 2016 7:30 p.m.
In this case, it wasn't even the deck creator that responded to me originally. It was someone else, who didn't comment on the deck at all while simultaneously insisting that I didn't provide anything constructive. It was only much later that the creator blew me off and thanked the other guy who said literally nothing about the deck.
September 5, 2016 7:40 p.m.
Yeah... That's probably annoying, but... What did you say exactly?
September 5, 2016 7:45 p.m.
trollslayer says... #29
I like Deathgaze Cockatrice. yes I am aware that there are better cards out there. no, I don't have a personal attachment to it. but it Is fun for me. i mainly play EDH now, and when you have say... oh I don't know, a Deathtouch cockatrice, to block a 10/10 coming at you, they say screw that. Do you know how many things can ping that bat? tons. do you know how many things can kill cockatrice? (I'm talking burn spells and the like) less. If my deck is not geared to life gain, then I would most likely prefer cockatrice. But yes, I find cockatrice fun. so screw you, I'm an outlier. And just because you have autism, doesn't give you an excuse to be rude. guess what, I have Aspergers, turrets, and I am inclined to sociopathic tendencies (I was also once clinically diagnosed with OCD, and that gave me very mild autism, but I don't know where that stands now). But I can see whats wrong with those. So stop hiding behind your autism, and learn a bit of courtesy. It may be hard, but it can make you a better person, and not a jerk.
September 5, 2016 7:47 p.m.
trollslayer says... #31
I came in late. it was more of a response to his response to the other responses. I went off on a bit of a tangent. sorry about that. I really do like cockatrice. it is fun. it was more of my two cents.
September 5, 2016 7:50 p.m.
trollslayer You are not a trollslayer. You are a troll. Every part of that post is a boldfaced lie.
September 5, 2016 7:51 p.m.
trollslayer says... #33
the fact that I like cockatrice? the fact that I have turrets, Aspergers, and I am inclined to sociopathic tendencies? most people don't even know what a sociopath is, do you? so until you can prove that all of that is a lie, shut it. you don't know me.
September 5, 2016 7:53 p.m.
You said that you are aware there are better cards out there, and that it's fun, and followed it up with its gameplay merits and not what makes it fun. That is how I know. Non-liars are incapable of doing such a thing.
September 5, 2016 7:56 p.m.
trollslayer says... #36
can it not be fun because of its gameplay values? I like control. I like big creatures. some are more fun ten others, but what is fun for me, may be, its game play values. When I smash your face with a 30/30 worldspine wurm because of xenagod, then that is fun for me. When i have a fastish solution to a 30/30 swinging at me, then that is fun for me. When I am countering almost all of your spells, then that is fun for me. Not all of us are narrow minded like you.
September 5, 2016 8:02 p.m.
It certainly can, but that is completely irrelevant. Did you not understand this thread at all? Or did you simply opt to not finish reading it before posting?
September 5, 2016 8:08 p.m.
trollslayer says... #38
I started to do that. then I went back and read it. I understand the thread, I jut sometimes choose to ignore the topic and focus on some things that the jerk says. (you may say that your blunt, but so am I. you are just that little extra to make you a jerk) And by focusing on what the jerk says (such as a generalized statement that is not true) I discredit them, and say screw you. So, screw you. If you honestly believe that all people can just take your harsh comments, with no filter whatsoever, then you are in fact wrong. some people just want to play casually, but maybe they forgot to tag their deck that. then when you start ripping it apart, or even just being generally rude, then people get mad and start calling you a jerk. just the way it goes. It sucks. I honestly do with that people knew that you are just trying to help (same with me) and that you don't like to sugar coat things, but that just won't happen. so, it sucks to suck.
September 5, 2016 8:18 p.m.
Apparently you don't realize that you are the only person being a jerk in this thread.
September 5, 2016 8:23 p.m.
trollslayer says... #40
so, sorry people if I have now polluted the forum.
September 5, 2016 8:24 p.m.
trollslayer says... #42
just calling someone a jerk, may indeed mean that I am inclined to not care about what I say to other people, but I'm not just talking about this thread. I'm talking about tappedout. I do believe that other people, no, that I am backing up other people. Is anyone even still reading this?
September 5, 2016 8:26 p.m.
trollslayer says... #43
because, again, I am sorry if this thread has degenerated because of me.
September 5, 2016 8:32 p.m.
metalevolence says... #44
Siyanor dude, look at the comment I got on my profile.
People don't understand that you're not supposed to upload decklists if you just want people to tell you did a great job, and you're going to get defensive at anything else.
People are just nuts.
September 5, 2016 8:54 p.m. Edited.
ThisIsBullshit says... #45
Siyanor I usually pick specific advice and focus on one or two cards, and if the response to my comment is positive and they ask for more feedback then I'll expand into more detail on more cards. I usually shy away from general advice or sweeping statements about the whole deck because some cards in a decklist may make the whole thing look bad but saying "this deck looks bad" is less helpful than "I think x card and y card seem out of place, maybe z card would work better because abc"
The other thing about card suggestions is you also have to remember that you are suggesting cards, not forcing them to change. You may think that a certain card sucks in a deck and they should change it, but perhaps the creator has a different idea. Just keep in mind that you're not necessarily correct all the time and that many card choices are subjective.
For example, I run Sire Of Insanity in my Kaalia deck. I could run many other better cards, but I have a personal attachment to it and don't want to get rid of it, regardless of what anyone else suggests. So if someone politely (or even impolitely) refuses to accept your suggestion, just thank them for the response and move on with your life. In my opinion, it's not worth getting worked up over conversations with strangers about a card game on the internet.
Hopefully that answers your question.
September 5, 2016 11:32 p.m.
Often the problem is not that specific cards are out of place, but that the entire deck concept is out of place in the format. The deck could be completely cohesive, but just not a suitable power level for the format. And I could be wrong, but I usually assume that is usually because the creator doesn't realize that. That assumption is strengthened when I see specific cards that are simply not good at all and have multiple far superior options in the format -- it seems pretty likely to me that this player doesn't know the format well.
It's entirely possible that there are more noncompetitive players (that nevertheless decide not to mention at all that their deck is not intended to be competitive) than new players, but if so, that is certainly news to me.
September 5, 2016 11:58 p.m.
I mean, take this for example:
Imagine I create a deck labelled Legacy that is entirely Legacy legal, perfectly cohesive, but has a power level more geared towards Tier 3 Modern play despite not being Modern legal -- and it also has 4 copies of Nesting Wurm.
Is your immediate assumption that Nesting Wurm was among the first cards I bought (which happens to be true; it was in the first precon deck I purchased) and I'm playing Legacy noncompetitively? It wouldn't be for me looking at that deck. My first assumption would be that the player has a clear grasp on Magic in general and can create a cohesive deck, but isn't aware of the power level in Legacy.
September 6, 2016 12:03 a.m.
brokendwarf says... #48
Well, this has been a delightful read.
To answer your most recent post: I always start with questions to get more info. In this case, it'd be something like "This is a really cohesive deck, but what is your reason(s) for running Nesting Wurm? It doesn't seem to fit the theme you're going for, so is it a card you enjoy using?" It's an open-ended questions that allows the creator to give you more info on specific things without sounding too intimidating.
September 6, 2016 12:39 a.m.
I got a brain hemorrage reading this post. For starters, and after reading many posts here and outside, OP you are not brusque: you are bluntly rude.
One of the first assessments here is right, you impose your will and show it as the one an only viable truth. Bad business.
Fun is relative. Not every decks HAS to be competitive by DEFAULT. TappedOut is not "Competitive TappedOut" or something like that. For example, my lists are just in the format allowed by the choice of cards. And not every card is the most expensive available, but they are fun, they win... and the most important part, I, the pilot, enjoy using them.
Usually this advice is bogus, but here it seems pretty tailored for the occasion: Treat others as you would like to be treated.
Or if you don't like that, do exactly the opposite of what I wrote in the first paragraph.
Also, when commenting on a deck, be light, be cheerful. Concentrate on a handful of aspects to be praised AND/OR improved. You liked the name? Say it: "cool name bro". You disliked Distress and think Duress is better? Mention it, elaborate but just a little.
If you don't have nothing (nice) to say on the matter of a particular deck... Path to Exile yourself outta that deck.
Be polite. Be efficient.
Cheers!
PS: not everybody here is rich. If someone runs Duress, don't bother forcing them to get Thoughtseize. Just don't.
PS2: Also learn to link the cards you mention in your posts. And yes, this was rude on purpose.
September 6, 2016 12:54 a.m. Edited.
...Nothing? You don't have to give feedback to a deck you literally think is neither good nor fun. Just...don't bother.
I know that's not what you want to hear, but honestly probably the best option.
ThisIsBullshit says... #2
I assume we're talking about critiquing decks, so I'd say pick one thing you want them to fix and focus on that, rather than ripping apart the whole deck. Also, it helps if you pose things from your own point of view: "I think it's interesting that you included x card. I think y card would serve that purpose better because xyz" instead of "x card is bad because blah" because much card choice is opinion. Adding rationale helps too - explain yourself rather than saying "your deck is bad" and leaving it at that.
I also find it helpful to add a nice comment or two, I'm sure there's something you liked about the deck, otherwise you wouldn't be looking at it. Surely there's one choice in there that you like, or perhaps you like the name, or the work that the creator has put into it. Criticism goes over a lot better if it's tempered with a compliment or two, or at least not given to them like an asshat.
If you really can't find anything nice to say, then I really think you shouldn't say anything at all. You have to remember not everyone is a hardcore competitive player and more casual players may not care about having the most efficient cards in their deck. Unless someone specifically asked you to rip their choices to shreds, then you should refrain from doing that. Constructive criticism should be constructive, not just make someone feel bad.
Sorry that got really long, but sometimes I tend to be pretty blunt with critique also and I understand the struggle.
September 5, 2016 4:42 p.m. Edited.