Hub requests: Toolbox, Lockdown
TappedOut forum
Posted on July 19, 2017, 6:16 p.m. by Kelvin-escesare
Toolboxing for hate cards is a prominent strategy in many Modern and EDH decks since silver bullets are so effective vs. combo. Naturally toolboxing is great for finding combo pieces, but since a deck isn't required to use toolbox for combo, it's incorrect to shoehorn Toolbox into Combo.
People have pointed out that Stax, Prison, and Lockdown get used interchangeably. Since many (or even most) prison/lockdown decks nowadays don't use resource denial, it seems very much an outdated misnomer to call them Stax. I think we should create a Lockdown hub or at least change Stax to Lockdown to reflect this trend. (Not to mention Pox and Stax are supposed to be distinct, but there's no Lockdown?)
Edit: People pointed out that Stax can cover Prison. I was thinking more about other locks, so changed this to a request for Hard Lock/Lockdown.
Edit: clarifications
rockleemyhero says... #3
Prison and stax are two different things, with prison falling under a type of stax decks. I think they should be ok using the same tag.
Toolbox and combo are almost polar opposites... toolbox decks want to stretch out the variety of answers you play in order to be able to adapt to any situation that may be thrown at you. Whereas combo wants to do one thing and one thing only, and find away to build the deck around making it faster and/or more resilient to static or instant speed interaction. I agree with you, tolbox should have its own tag.
July 19, 2017 7:25 p.m.
Kelvin-escesare says... #4
I think we're using different definitions of prison. Prison, as I understand it and as defined by most websites, is using a combination of cards to create a lockdown. So stax is a specific case of prison, and prison can be considered a specific case of combo-control. I guess some people use stax and prison interchangeably, but stax definitely seems like a misnomer since most prison decks nowadays (e.g. Lantern, Workshop, Enduring Ideal, EDH prison decks) aren't doing any staxing... If anything, we should replace Stax with Prison haha.
As for toolbox, rockleemyhero already said what I was going to say :) I see what you're saying though -- maybe all good toolbox decks should be comboing, but by that logic we should remove all the non-competitive hub archetypes haha.
July 19, 2017 7:36 p.m. Edited.
Kelvin-escesare says... #5
I want to correct what I said. Prison probably includes a few things stax doesn't but it still tends to refer to resource/mana denial. Meanwhile there are lots of other types of locks.
So I think Hard Lock or Lockdown is the hub we're missing.
July 19, 2017 7:45 p.m.
Rusty_Shackleford says... #6
definitely needs to be a "toolbox" hub; stax is essentially prison, as many have pointed out.
July 19, 2017 9:14 p.m.
Kelvin-escesare says... #7
Yeah I'm fine with Stax as a sub for Prison. I was sort've confusing Prison with locks in general, but the two are somewhat distinct.
What do you think of asking for Hard Lock or Lockdown as a hub instead?
July 19, 2017 10:01 p.m.
No, Stax is fine.
Stax is more than just tax effects. It's hard, continuous denial of resources, which is most easily achieved by yes, taxes, until you can devolve it into a prison of unplayability with a critical mass of tax effects and/or lockdown synergies. There's no reason for any unique hub to exist for it as I see it; stax is perfectly reasonable.
I'm not necessarily saying all toolbox decks should be comboing (which I assume you are taking as toolboxing into a combo). I'm saying that if you are toolboxing enough to the point that your deck can be referred to as a toolbox, you have some kind of combo going on. Its irrelevant whether the combo itself is what wins or whether or not it's infinite; the act of toolboxing that effectively is a combo. Calling it something more specific than that is frivolous.
July 19, 2017 10:29 p.m.
Kelvin-escesare says... #9
You haven't addressed anything new that was said.
Stax is a fine substitute for Prison, we're all agreed on that. I'm wondering now if anybody thinks Hard Lock or Lockdown should get its own thing; those are clearly unrelated to Stax.
As for toolbox, we're not talking about combos or synergies. Most toolbox decks are trying to find hate cards for specific decks. You can't possibly tell me using Chord of Calling to tutor for hate package of Reclamation Sage, Orzhov Pontiff, Fulminator Mage (vs. Tron), Scavenging Ooze (vs. Dredge), Aven Mindcensor qualifies as a combo. One card is not a combo.
July 19, 2017 10:39 p.m. Edited.
rockleemyhero says... #10
I agree with escesare. The term "combo" in mtg is less literal than it sounds; it typically refers to a game winning combo that defines the deck OR sometimes puts the game incredibly into the user's favor in terms of tempo and card advantage so that they win shortly.I see that you understand that but ydefinition of combo is not the historical view of the game's definition of it. By that definition, almost anything could be referred to as a combo if it has Synergy. That would be the same as saying that the archetype Stax is irrelevant because it is essentially just a form of Control.
July 20, 2017 12:05 a.m.
Winterblast says... #11
I don't think a lockdown hub is needed because decks with a hardlock as win option are often referred to as Stax, even if they don't achieve the lock by stacking cummulative effects until the opponent can't play anymore. I guess the term Stax isn't used in newer formats because classic Stax effects haven't been printed for a while...it's still a common name for anything that works with a hardlock though, at least I feel that is the case among older players.
July 20, 2017 6 a.m.
Yes, my Stax point was saying precisely what Winterblast is. Lockdown/Hard Lock is still basically another form of Prison which is an inevitability/goal of Stax. No need for new hub at all, there.
And yes, I was addressing your point on how toolboxing is just getting hate cards rather than the typical "comboing off." And I said that if you are toolboxing that much, you are a combo deck. Chord of Calling is not your only means of toolboxing if you feel the need to call yourself a toolbox deck; you have a lot of cards and synergies all with the express purpose of toolboxing, and personally, I see that as a combo deck. That said, on this point, I'm willing to concede that this /may/ be specific enough to tolerate a separate hub. I would disagree with it, but I wouldn't necessarily complain if it happened.
But the Hard Lock/Lockdown I think is wholly unnecessary.
July 20, 2017 7:37 a.m.
Kelvin-escesare says... #13
I see you want to be conservative with new hubs, which is perfectly valid, but I think the ship has sort've sailed. By your logic, all the 20ish tribe hubs should be removed because we already have Tribal. Locks and Stax are much further apart than existing hubs like Stax and Pox. Consider a deck that tries to assemble Energy Field + Rest in Peace to prevent all damage, Solemnity + Phyrexian Unlife to prevent all life loss, or Enduring Ideal. These are so far away from Stax, it's like calling Midrange Aggro. I do like the idea of being frugal with hubs, but that means we should first remove all the extra ones before denying Lock.
I still think we're missing the point with toolbox. Again, a good toolbox deck should probably be utilizing combos or some synergies (as you pointed out), but what if the deck utilizes toolbox for hate cards and nothing else? How do you label that?
Regardless, it makes no sense to exclude Toolbox just because the decks fit under Combo; decks can be multiple hubs. By your logic, we should remove all the hubs except Aggro, Control, Combo, Ramp, Midrange because all other decks fall under those. I think you're being a little too frugal there ;)
July 21, 2017 4:07 p.m. Edited.
If you want to discuss removing other hubs, make a thread for that. I'm discussing whether we need these two. I don't believe we do, and my reasoning is clear and available. Not up to me from here, I only offer my logic to those whose decision it is.
kanokarob says... #2
Well Prison may as well be a different name for Stax. Its just a product of late game staxing. So it makes sense that isn't there.
Toolbox seems unnecessary, because if you can toolbox so effectively that you feel you need to label it toolbox, you're a combo deck. Maybe you choose not to combo or it isn't infinite, but I'd still call such a deck a combo deck.
That's just my assumptions as to why those hubs don't exist.
July 19, 2017 7:03 p.m.