Flip Planeswalker?
Asked by iBleedPunk 8 years ago
So my LGS is starting an EDH League and we had to meet and discuss the various topics which needed to be sorted out. Among these topics came the subject of the DFC Legends-Planeswalkers (I.e.Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip, Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip) and how they technically can't flip into their PW side due to being returned to the Commandzone. Now I thought that sending your commander to the command zone instead of exile or the graveyard was a replacement effect, so wouldn't you be able to flip a Legend-PW?
Now my question is, if I used a DFC Legend like Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip as my commander, would she never be able to flip or am I wrong?
iBleedPunk says... #2
But will they be able to flip without returning to the command zone? I have scoured the internet for comprehensive rulings but alas cannot find any
November 21, 2016 3:49 p.m.
Sending your commander to the command zone is a choice. When it dies, you can choose to have it go to the yard, exile to exile, etc. So yes, dfcs can be used as commanders and can flip.
November 21, 2016 3:50 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #4
Specifically, you're not forced to put your commander in the command zone. If you choose, you may send it to the zone it's going to.
So, when their trigger resolves and they're exiled, you may indeed send them to exile so that they can then return as their transformed side.
November 21, 2016 3:51 p.m.
joshuaizac says... #5
sending your commander to the command zone is an optional replacement effect for any time it would change zones, be it moving from hand to grave, grave to exile, battlefield to exile ect.
also worth noting in case you or anyone else is wondering, Westvale Abbey Flip and or Elbrus, the Binding Blade Flip flip-sides cannot be your commander (unless local playgroup makes an exception to the general rule), and Archangel Avacyn Flip is both a white and a red card, and as such can be the commander for a Boros deck.
November 21, 2016 4:12 p.m.
hyperlocke says... #6
The exact rule is this one:
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.
Notice the "may". Putting the Commander into the Commander Zone instead of into exile is an option! You can let the effect resolve as intended, so that you can control Liliana, Defiant Necromancer Flip as your Commander.
November 21, 2016 5:11 p.m. Edited.
hyperlocke says... #7
Also, rules questions should be asked in the Rules Q&A linked in the top header.
November 21, 2016 5:20 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #8
As everyone has said, returning a commander to the command zone is optional, but the DFC planeswalkers will still be able to transform even if you return them to the command zone when they exile themselves. An effect that moves an object from one zone to another will be able to find the object in the first zone it moves to, as long as it's a public zone. If you move your DFC planeswalker to the command zone instead of exile when it tries to exile itself, you will still return it to the battlefield transformed (you will likely never have a reason to do this).
November 22, 2016 1:18 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #9
@ Rhadamanthus:
603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called zone-change triggers. Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponents hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.
November 22, 2016 1:29 a.m.
PayOneLife says... #10
Raging_Squiggle The ability on the flipwalkers doesn't specify that you return the flipwalker from exile:
Draw a card, then discard a card. If there are five or more cards in your graveyard, exile Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control.
So my understanding is that the effect that exiles Jace is replaced, and then there is nothing in the text "then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control" that prohibits the return of the flipwalker. The effect simply looks for the card in the "zone that it moved to", which is the command zone. If it had said "return him from exile to the battlefield" then it wouldn't work. It seems similar in principle to the It That Betrays interaction with commanders returning to the command zone.
November 22, 2016 2:10 a.m.
PayOneLife says... #11
Not to belabour the point, but check out this discussion for Astral Slide on the MtG website:
November 22, 2016 2:44 a.m.
@joshuaizac: You're actually misinformed - you may not put the Commander into the Command zone any time it would change zones, but only if it were to be put into exile, the graveyard, your hand, or the library. The difference is that you can't replace the event of your Commander being put into play (or the absolutely-removed-from-the-freaking-game-forever zone).
November 22, 2016 4:46 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
@Raging_Squiggle - This is the rule behind what I was talking about:
400.7h If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability's effects can find that object.
The "never entered the specified zone" part of 603.6 is for a situation involving a weird effect like Grafdigger's Cage or a trigger that specifically states which zone it's expecting to find the object later on in the effect (Hellcarver Demon, Necromancer's Covenant, a couple other weird ones).
Atony1400 says... #1
Commander rules state that you can in fact have them as your commander, so I see no reason as to why not.
November 21, 2016 3:45 p.m.