Undying and Modular
General forum
Posted on Feb. 20, 2013, 2:41 a.m. by krimness
I'm currently working on an EDH deck and thought of and interesting combo with Undying and Modular. The problem i have is if it works or not. Having Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in play and an Arcbound Crusher and Krark-Clan Ironworks , would that then allow me to sacrifice the artifact removing all +1/+1 counters, retrieving the 2 mana and then with undying, bring it back, and repeat. My question is, does that work.
More specifically, when Arcbound Crusher goes to the graveyard, it has +1/+1 counters on it. Undying and Modular would both check for triggers at the same time - Modular would trigger, but Undying wouldn't. Arcbound Crusher wouldn't come back, because Undying didn't trigger.
February 20, 2013 3:50 a.m.
How about something with persist, such as Glen Elendra Archmage ? Do the +1/+1 counter from undying and the -1/-1 counter from persist cancel each other out? If so you can abuse the hell out of that Archmage. Counter any noncreature spells as long as you have blue mana available. Grazing Kelpie would be good against reanimator decks.
And with a free sac outlet: There is Kitchen Finks for unlimited life. Murderous Redcap for unlimited damage. River Kelpie for unlimited card draw. Woodfall Primus to kill all noncreature permanents your opponent has. This guy is expensive though.A couple ideas for sac outlets are: Altar of Dementia it's fun as it is unlimited mill as well, but not Modern legal. Blasting Station is a fun Modern alternative that produces unlimited damage. There are many options for the sac outlet and you can choose whatever one fits your plan for a deck. These options are good as it makes any creature with persist useful with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed out.
February 20, 2013 4:55 a.m.
They don't "Cancel out" per se. There's still a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, so if a thing with persist AND undying died, it'd come back with the same P/T, and if it died again, neither ability would trigger. The counters still exist, even if the effects of the counters sort of cancel out.
February 20, 2013 6:22 a.m.
@erabel
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.
Opposing counters do cancel out, and are removed. If a creature with Persist and Undying died, it'd enter with both counters, and then both counters would be removed. Then if it died again, it would have no counters on it.
February 20, 2013 6:33 a.m.
As x754 said, they do cancel each other out. That is a great combo you have stumbled upon!
February 20, 2013 6:51 a.m.
Hmm. Didn't know that rule. Now I kinda wanna make this deck myself...
February 20, 2013 7:30 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #10
Giving something Undying AND Persist? Someone is a trolling player :D
Undying Evil on something with Persist for the lulz
February 20, 2013 7:42 a.m.
The problem with Undying Evil is that when he comes back the first time he is considered a new creature and no longer has undying.
February 20, 2013 8:55 a.m.
I hate to burst your bubble, but it would not work that way for Undying and Persist. When the creature with both would die, both undying and persist would trigger. At that point, whichever trigger is placed last on the stack (on top) would resolve first.
Now, I'm not saying that the idea doesn't work; it just wouldn't cancel all the counters off. For instance, at first, you could stack it so that undying is on top, and the creature would come in with a +1/+1 counter. Then, when he dies again, only persist would trigger, and he would return with a -1/-1 counter but no +1/+1 counter. Rinse and repeat for an infinitely recurrable creature.
February 20, 2013 8:56 a.m.
Still just as good, for this concept of infinite saccing.
February 20, 2013 8:59 a.m.
drakanar: After I posted about it before I actually had this thought and wondered if it would work that way, but as you said, the idea still works and when you break your combo you can leave the creature with a +1/+1 counter. Even better.
February 20, 2013 9 a.m.
drakanar: Have card:Cathars' Crusade on the field and have Persist resolve first. Problem solved.
February 20, 2013 9:15 a.m.
Yeah, that works too, @acbooster. At that point, you wouldn't even need undying. However, the OP listed Undying (from Mikaeus, the Unhallowed ) and Persist as the question, is all. Nice combo with card:Cathars' Crusade, though :).
February 20, 2013 9:32 a.m.
And it'll buff up all of your other creatures. card:Cathars' Crusade and Kitchen Finks and any sac engine means infinite life and infinitely large creatures. :3
February 20, 2013 9:40 a.m.
The card:Cathars' Crusade combo works in a similar way as Melira, Sylvok Outcast , and the exact same way as Juniper Order Ranger . I have a deck running both of those, feel free to check out why Melira is my hero.
February 20, 2013 10:38 a.m.
Actually i was asking about Modular and Undying, but saw the arguments for persist and that is what led me to this thought.
@drakanar I believe i understand the persist but what of Modular? As modular's effect happens same time as persist, would that not mean that when looking at the stack for abilities to go off, couldn't the removal of all +1/+1 counters, from modular, then allow Undying to go off, as there are no counters on it, or am i missing something on how it should work.
February 20, 2013 12:05 p.m.
The thing is, both undying and modular only trigger when the creature is sent to the graveyard. There is no way for you to remove the counters using modular before the creature goes to the graveyard.
So when the creature does get sent to the graveyard, and it has counters, Undying never gets a chance to resolve because it never triggers and is never put on the stack. Modular does trigger, and you are able to remove the counters once it resolves, but at that point the event for which undying would trigger has already passed.
You could, however, find some way to remove the counters before the creature dies, and have it sent to the graveyard without counters. It would come back into play as a 1/1 with two +1/+1 counters (in OP example).
Denial048 says... #2
That wont work. The reminder text of Undying reads: When a creature with undying dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.
Because Arcbound Crusher already had +1/+1 counters, Undying won't bring it back from the graveyard.
February 20, 2013 3:12 a.m.