Opinions of Proxy Cards?
General forum
Posted on Nov. 4, 2015, 9:25 a.m. by Crayfish
I can't afford a Black Lotus. I can't invest money in a Blood Moon. I can't easily acquire an Oona, Queen of the Fae (I'm not able to buy cards online right now, don't ask). That's why proxies exist!
For those that don't know, proxy-ing is when you make an alternate art version of a card, print it out, and put it in a sleeve with, I dunno, a basic land. That way it looks like you really have a Blood Moon! Some people don't approve of proxies, some people do. In my opinion, it is a way to get cards that I can't normally get. I don't feel shame in using a proxy. Its not cheating, its using your resources. And it isn't illegal, as long as you dont try to sell your proxy for money. (I swear this is a real, mint condition Black Lotus!)
The only cards I have seriously proxied are a Deathrite Shaman for my friends struggling Golgari deck, and a Xenagos, the Reveler for a Gruul deck I was building.
What do you guys think? Are proxies acceptable? I would love to hear your opinions!
--Crayfish.
pleasiodmakerblooloo says... #3
I believe that proxies are 100% acceptable. But only in casual play. I believe that proxies should be barred from sanctioned tournament play. If they were allowed, no one would buy any cards, the secondary MTG market would crash and Wizards themselves would lose money. A possibility could be to maybe allow a small amount (maybe 4-6) proxies in, let's say, legacy or vintage tournaments as those prices are just crazy.
November 4, 2015 9:35 a.m.
Only to an extent, like I use them for messing around with competitive brews like "how well does liliana work in my gifts deck" and don't feel like forking out $400 to test that idea.
Though this is a TRADING CARD game and it's important to remember obtaining the cards is a part of the game itself, I do not like people using proxys in "completed" decks.
November 4, 2015 9:38 a.m.
NoPantsParade says... #5
There was a fun discussion about this a while back.
Proxies are meh. I don't like them, personally.
November 4, 2015 9:44 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #6
I think that proxies should never be used in sanctioned play outside of some Vintage tournaments. The whole point of a trading card game is to actually have the cards.
That being said, I love using proxies to test out new brews while playing casually, or to finish an EDH deck while a card is in the mail. As long as you intend to actually get the card if you plan on using the deck in real competition, it isn't an issue.
Also on another note, it's nice when you actually take the time to write out the correct wording of a card, or print off a paper copy. It bothers me when players just scribble "Blood Moon" on a mountain and call it a day.
November 4, 2015 10:12 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
I only ever endorse proxies for testing a card or if the actual card is in the mail. I don't approve of someone proxying cards they have no intention of ever buying. I guess the exception to this would be if you are proxying a gauntlet to playtest against. I don't expect someone to buy every meta deck just to tune their deck, but I also don't expect someone bring a deck to magic night with a picture of Imperial Seal in front of a basic forest.
November 4, 2015 10:26 a.m.
I'm with lemmingllama. I'm currently proxying Kaseto, Orochi Archmage and skullwinder while I wait for the commander decks to be released.
Some people don't like it, claiming I can't wait...
I also proxy a Tropical Island due to monetary reasons. That one people understand. As a general rule I try to save up and buy my proxies cards. It makes the proxies as a sort of marker on the decks Progress.
November 4, 2015 10:31 a.m.
Proxies are fine to use as long as you have the intention of actually getting the cards. If not, then you shouldn't use them. They're more for testing and seeing if something might work in your deck, they're not there to complete your deck. Sure cards are expensive, but if you can't afford them and don't want to buy them then don't use them. You really should find other options that you could use in it's place. Part of deck building is using the resources that are available to you, an important aspect that your ignoring by creating fake cards. Also, technically proxies are illegal everywhere except the kitchen table (no governing rules there), even if you don't try to sell them as real or as fake, and whether you think it is or not, according to the rules for MTG and for EDH using proxies is cheating.
Ask yourself, would it be acceptable for you to stop buying cards all together and start only using proxies? Of course not, you know that would be wrong. So you shouldn't feel justified using only a few. Whether you proxy only a couple of cards or all 100, cheating is cheating.
As a side note, another reason you don't want proxies in your deck is because you'll play games with other groups of people (unless your just completely unsociable and never go outside your normal group). So, just because your typical group allows them, doesn't mean that every group will. You don't want to be left out simply because you were too lazy to buy the card or find a replacement, do ya?
November 4, 2015 10:37 a.m.
brokendwarf says... #10
I proxied the rest of my cube so I could use it. Some of the stuff is like quarter cards that I can't friggin' find anywhere (stuff like Genju of the Fields or Clout of the Dominus), and the others are expensive crap like Thoughtseize and Land Tax.
November 4, 2015 11:12 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #11
My LGS hosts an unsanctioned Modern tournament every Saturday in which everyone is allowed to use proxies. I've been playing in these for a year or more now, and I have some very interesting feedback:
- My LGS is probably the most competitive one I've heard of, and I'm a better player because of it. I'm sure I could walk into a GP or something and be at least comfortable with my matchups. I see almost every T1 deck on a regular basis, as well as a few T2 and T1.5 and an occasional off-the-wall deck as well. It's a great environment for testing deck ideas to determine their viability, and just preparing for a competitive setting in general.
- I now own a full Modern deck, almost two. This would never have been possible if my LGS didn't allow proxies. In fact, I may not be into MtG now if it weren't for my LGS's awesome, yet unsanctioned, policies.
- Even the guys who actually own sets of Goyfs/Lilianas/etc. and grind tourneys relatively often don't mind the proxies. In fact, they like having them.
Thus, I have to say that I 100% support proxies, and in fact suggest that store owners consider hosting unsanctioned events with them. Especially if eternal format tourneys are struggling to fire.
November 4, 2015 12:35 p.m.
actiontech says... #12
I would just say again: if everyone at the table knows about them and is okay with them, then fine. What I am vehemently opposed to is the printing of realistic (counterfeit) proxies with the purpose to deceive. If a card is fake it needs to be clearly marked as a fake. To do otherwise is destructive to the value of the cards, and that makes up a very large portion of why MTG is able to survive and thrive.
November 4, 2015 1:44 p.m.
I agree with what pretty much everyone else is saying. If you're playing casually, and everyone knows about it, proxies are great. And no one expects you to drop a ton of money on cards without playtesting them a bit first. Just make sure you tell people, and 99% of the time, they're okay with it. But if you try to trick people, or have no intention of buying the card, even if you like it in your deck, then that's not fair to the rest of the community.
November 6, 2015 8:06 a.m.
golgarigirl says... #15
Generally I'm fine with proxies. Some cards are expensive and warrant a test before purchase. Others are just hard to find. But the caveat is twofold for my group: 1.) everyone has to know of/be ok with said proxy and 2.) you have to be in the process/willing to purchase said proxy when it becomes available.
One friend has had a card proxied for about 2 years now, and we are miffed, because he's had the means to get it for a while, and it's available, but why bother when we allow him to play with a printout of it for free? Don't be that guy.
That said, I do like when tournaments allow proxies. It allows people who don't have the means to spend hundreds or more on a Modern+ deck to be competitive in a format they otherwise couldn't or wouldn't touch.
November 13, 2015 3:05 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #16
So I'm a bit confused that many people have mentioned availability of cards as a reason that they are ok with proxies. I live in the US so every card is available from TCGplayer in any quantity that is legal in decks (I say that because they only have 3 Black Lotus available atm, but you can only play 1 in any format so it's available enough). Where are people at that availability of cards is a problem?
November 13, 2015 3:18 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #17
I have actually run into issues finding/purchasing specific cards online. For example, I often look for certain artworks/printings of cards (the art is what got me into this game, and by GOD, my mono-blue deck will only have NOAH BRADLEY full arts! Yes, I'm an art snob and I have the degree to prove it) . I wanted a FTV:Legends Kresh The Bloodbraided, and for some ungodly reason, he was sold out literally EVERYWHERE for a good few months. My friends were ok with that. I also have a play group that sometimes contains young folks with no access to buying cards online, so then availability is limited to a few LGS and what the area cardslingers can accrue.
November 13, 2015 8:53 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #18
OK I accept the fact that sometimes specific printings are sold out. I have never seen it myself but there are few arts I don't like so I will not often need to specify a printing. With pre-paid debit cards existing and public libraries offering internet access I find it hard to believe that people don't have access to buying cards online because of age though.
November 14, 2015 5:32 a.m.
Harashiohorn says... #19
Ah proxies...
My opinion has changed a lot on these over the years, at first I was adamantly against the idea of proxies because in some ways they fundamentally undermine the point of the game, and the power level of some groups (I'm sorry but your casual deck probably doesn't need a black lotus unless all your friends started playing in alpha). THAT BEING SAID, I have recently become more tolerant of proxies, because the thing is sometimes they are necessary to even get to play. I have a couple of tournament modern decks, but a lot of people in my playgroup are new and don't have even vaguely competitive decks, unless I let them run a ton of proxies. Overall I'm still skeptical of proxies, and think they should only be temporary solutions, but they are superior to not having anyone to playtest against.
November 15, 2015 11:26 a.m.
I'm fine with a few proxies that will be removed upon buying the card, but I'll admit if you proxy a whole edh deck, I'm going to be a salty motherf if I lose.
November 15, 2015 11:35 a.m.
My play group only uses proxies for valuable cards you actually own. For instance, I have a few Gaea's Cradle, Blood Moon, & Rishadan Port that I wouldn't DREAM of putting the actual card in my deck!
BUT!
I always have the card on hand in one of those hard sleeves so that when I draw the proxy, I then display the actual card as well.
However, I do agree that using proxies is a great way to test out specific cards for future purchase/use or also to test the cards/decks you do own against decks cards/decks that other players are currently using.
I agree that in an actual tournament setting, proxies should not be allowed. But in any other type of play, as long as your opponents or play-group are aware and are okay with it, go for it!
November 15, 2015 12:01 p.m.
A long time ago, when even the dual lands from Revised were selling for only $12, I was against proxy cards. Now that those same duals are $70+, I say go ahead and proxy cards you intend to buy. Don't go around proxying power 9 and ridiculous things like that, unless you own them and are just proxying to keep your cards safe. I personally think proxied cards are essential for testing out deck ideas these days. Most cards are just too expensive thanks to standard, modern, and some stuff just being so old and rare.
November 16, 2015 11:58 a.m.
Limited proxies and not in sanctioned.
If it's not sanctioned than it's okay as long as you don't go overboard.
November 19, 2015 6:54 p.m.
okay okay. So I have very limited money on magic. My budget a card in EDH is 10 cents. Maybe 30 cents on the bigger cards. I play proxies because I just can't afford a deck.
Proxy decks make financially strained players able to play on the same level. Like for example. The one person in our play group not playing proxy is a supervisor who's budget a card ranges a dollar to 12.
I really don't like the mentality of "It's okay if you plan on buying it" because some players don't have that option. And yes they could save up, but saving up for a valuable deck would take (personally) probably a year. So maybe a year isn't long to others, but saving up for one deck while there's multiple decks being produced in the group it makes the interactions repetitive and games boring for yourself. And there's other things to save up for!
It makes games more interesting too. It really uses the game to it's full potential. It brings more challenges to overcome and intense interactions.
The point of the game isn't to spend money (again personally). I see the games point to find that one deck to beat any strategy you might run into. Which is impossible, but thrilling.
November 21, 2015 1:21 p.m.
Magic isn't just about having fun, if it was Wizards would just give the cards away. Magic is a money making tool.
Magic, and even more specifically edh is an investment.
November 21, 2015 1:28 p.m.
People don't consider the money proxy might make for wizards too! A lot of promotion done for the game is by players asking other people to play and join. So the more players can access the game more players will join. Plus if a player starts out playing proxy and enjoys the game there's a large chance down the road (when financially able) such said player will invest in the game. Whether it's drafts, decks, or tournaments.
November 21, 2015 2:14 p.m.
Kutdra1... only $.10 - $.30 a card? I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand that being strapped is strapped, but wow. I have designed a number of 'somewhat' competitive non-EDH decks that would retail for less than $15.00. Are you sure you can't save up?
But in any case, that really isn't the point. If you and the group you play with are fine with proxies, that's all that matters. As a matter of fact, I just "completed" a deck I designed using proxies last night, not because I can't afford the cards, but simply because I've been unable to find them available for purchase locally (I prefer not to purchase them online).
November 21, 2015 2:16 p.m.
Kutdra1... and I also want to give you a "thumbs up" for your 2nd comment. Yes, MTG is designed to make money for WOTC, but proxies are an excellent "vehicle" to introduce new players to the game, giving them access to cards that they might otherwise be unable to find or afford. This might spark their interest in taking the game seriously and competing in tournaments, which wouldn't allow proxies.
actiontech says... #2
Proxies are fine as long as everyone who is playing knows about them and is cool with it. Stating the obvious: don't ever try to enter any kind of competitive game or tournament with them.
What the heck do you need a Black Lotus for anyway? Oona is like $3 too; why proxy something so cheap?
November 4, 2015 9:33 a.m.