How do i get an indestructible creatures toughness to 0?
General forum
Posted on April 27, 2014, 1:54 a.m. by Morklor
I have just came across this issue for some reason after years of playing. So lethal damage doesn't destroy creature with indestructible but reducing its toughness to 0 does. How can you reduce and indestructible creatures toughness to 0?
use things that give the creature -x/-x. you can use cards like Zaghrog or give the creature -1/-1 counters in various ways.
Other good ways are forced sacrifices. There are tons of ways. Celestial Flare or Liliana of the Veil are good. stuff like that.
Or you can go the old fashion right with exile. Path to Exile (modern staple) Swords to Plowshares (legacy staple) etc.
Hope that helps
April 27, 2014 2:40 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #5
Damage can reduce an indestructible creatures toughness to 0 but not beyond and it dosnt become destroyed or die at 0. You have to reduce its toughness to a -1 minimum to kill it. You could deal damage first reducing it to 0 and follow up with a Tragic Slip for -1 assuming your creature survived and didnt trigger morbid for a -13/-13 effect. In closing indestructibles cant die from damage alone. Basic method is how I explained or force your opponent to sacrifice it themself or exile it in which case its not dead just changing zones and out of your hair.
April 27, 2014 3:13 a.m.
What the..? No no wait. Giving an indestructible creature -1/-1 after it sustained damage won't kill it. Damage does not reduce toughness. It simply "destroys" a creature when equal to its toughness.
To get rid of an indestructible one, if you try to reduce its toughness to 0, you need to give it -0/-X and X has to be at least equal to its full toughness, whatever damage it has already sustained in the turn.
If you don't have access to black -X/-X spells, try infect or wither creatures, like Glistener Elf or Tower Above .
April 27, 2014 3:57 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith - that's almost completely wrong.
as Askani28 said - damage does not reduce toughness. And the toughness doesn't have to go to -1.
April 27, 2014 6:47 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #8
Any creature that has a toughness of zero goes to the yard... It's not damage, but a P/T modifier.
Black Sun's Zenith , Dismember , Tragic Slip , could all work, pending the size of the critter. As others have said, exiling it works too.
April 27, 2014 11:23 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #9
That isn't correct ,damage reduces toughness until end of turn that is why you can damge a 4/4 by 2 during combat then deal it 2 second main phase to finish the job with lets say pillar of flame and exile it. when a creature is dealt damage combat or non combat and is reduced to 0 toughness it dies, it isnt destroyed. Destroyed means something else entirely. Don't jump in correcting people when you know nothing.
April 28, 2014 2:24 a.m.
Damage is marked on a creature until end of turn, but its toughness isn't actually technically reduced.
April 28, 2014 2:29 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #11
So marked , subtracted , reduced whats the difference when in this case it means the same thing. Thats like you say what was the bad guy driving? I say an orange car instead of orange colored car so you put out an apb on a car that looks like an orange. If you want verbatim responses read the text file expanded rules yourself and copy paste it.
April 28, 2014 2:41 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith I have no idea where you learned to play Magic, but your understanding of the rules is seriously mixed up. You should check out the official rulings.
From the Comprehensive Rules:
701.6b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owners graveyard for any other reason, it hasnt been "destroyed."
April 28, 2014 2:45 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #13
How about anyone asks a question just direct them to magiccomprules and tell them to look it up. Sick of the fucking pissing contest just trying to help a new player fuck.
April 28, 2014 2:46 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #14
Yes and indestructibles ignore the state based actions to check for leathal damage but the get marks till end of turn and are put into the graveyard if there toughness becomes -
April 28, 2014 2:49 a.m.
Again, from the Comprehensive Rules:
119.3e Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.
119.6. Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.11, "Regenerate") and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2).
April 28, 2014 2:51 a.m.
Yes, damage still gets marked on a creature with indestructible, and as you say, the creature ignores state-based effects that would destroy it like lethal damage. But its toughness hasn't been reduced at all. It's still the same. Damage has simply been marked on it.
April 28, 2014 2:53 a.m.
Look at it this way:
You have a Darksteel Gargoyle in play. I Shock it, then give all creatures -1/-1 until end of turn. Because the -1/-1 makes it a 2/2 with 2 damage marked on it and since lethal damage doesn't kill it, It survives
700.4. If a permanent is indestructible, rules and effects can't destroy it. (See rule 701.6, "Destroy.") Such permanents are not destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the lethal-damage state-based action (see rule 704.5g). Rules or effects may cause an indestructible permanent to be sacrificed, put into a graveyard, or exiled.
This thread uses a similar example with the answer explained by a rules advisor
April 28, 2014 2:54 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #18
Basically I can deal a 7/7 indestuctible 7 marks of damage but it wont check that it has leathal but give it a -1 counter or static or game state based -1 and it goes bye bye because as I first explained thats the answer to the fucking question.
April 28, 2014 2:54 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #19
I said it has to go below zero read all my posts idiot
April 28, 2014 2:56 a.m.
But, it has to do more than go below 0 in your scenario. It doesn't matter how much damage you do to it before you put the -x/-x effect on it. Even if you deal it 500 damage, a single -1/-1 counter WILL NOT kill it. You must give it's toughness enough -x to make that number 0 or less. A 3/3 would need at least -3/-3, be it from a single effect or a number of -1/-1 counters to get it there, before it would be killed due to having a toughness of 0 or less.
April 28, 2014 3:07 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
@ColdHeartedSith: Reevaluate yourself. Everything you've said in this thread is condescending and factually wrong.
A creature is destroyed as a state-based action for having lethal damage marked on it. Damage does not reduce a creature's toughness unless it is wither or infect damage, which are dealt to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters. When damage is dealt to a creature, that damage is marked on that creature until the cleanup step.
Indestructible literally means "cannot be destroyed," so nonwither, noninfect damage is completely irrelevant to an indestructible creature. Even if you deal 50 damage to an indestructible 3/3, the 3/3 won't die.
Creatures die as a state-based action for having 0 or less toughness. This is not destruction, so indestructible doesn't prevent or modify it in any way. If we took the 3/3 from our previous situation and gave it at least -0/-3 (using, say, Agony Warp ), then it would die. If you give it -1/-1 or -2/-2 using Tragic Slip or Disfigure , it would survive as a 2/2 or 1/1 with indestructible and 50 damage marked on it.
April 28, 2014 3:08 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #22
There are some digital versions of the game that use a visual shortcut of "reducing" a creature's toughness when it takes damage, but that's not what's going on. It's just a UI design choice to make it easy to see how close a creature is to death. The creature's real toughness hasn't actually changed. The misunderstanding on this point is a very common thing (pretty much ever since the game's beginning), and often gets passed on to new players by current players who don't understand it themselves.
Like others have said, damage is marked on a creature until the end of the current turn but doesn't reduce it's toughness. A creature normally gets destroyed when lethal damage - damage equal to or greater than its toughness - is marked on it, but indestructible creatures won't be destroyed for lethal damage.
April 28, 2014 9:51 a.m.
tyforthevenom says... #24
ColdHeartedSith indestructible creatures dont take damage but effects from dealing damage to them still trigger
April 29, 2014 11:50 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #25
Yes, they do take damage. They take all the damage. The point of this entire discussion is that damage doesn't cause them to be destroyed.
April 29, 2014 12:20 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #26
actually indestructible for all intensive purposes causes no damage to be done to the creature but the damage is still dealt, they take no damage no matter how much is dealt
April 29, 2014 12:55 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #27
Unless the damage is prevented or we're dealing with Infect/Wither, dealing damage to a creature always causes marked damage on the creature. There's nothing in the rules for indestructible that says otherwise. Trying to explain something by telling a person the wrong thing doesn't help anyone.
April 29, 2014 1:03 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #28
the rules concerning indestructible on a planeswalker via Indestructibility no damage is marked coz marking damage would cause loss of loyalty which would lead to destruction
April 29, 2014 1:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #29
@tyforthevenom: You're wrong. Indestructible modifies the result of damage. It doesn't modify the damage itself. The damage is dealt and marked.
Furthermore, indestructible doesn't matter on planeswalkers. When a planeswalker is dealt damage, that many loyalty counters are remove from it. The planeswalker is put into its owner's graveyard if it has 0 loyalty counters. This is a state-based action and does not involve destruction.
April 29, 2014 1:11 p.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #30
Actually indestructible on planneswalkers can be viable against destruction such as Dreadbore ..you see you have to be careful on wording every little thing you say. Isn't this fun? I admit I thought damage marks could reduce its toughness till end of turn and it simply dosnt check for leathal damage, that miscommunication was caused by a wizards magic digital product DOTP Original, 2012, 2013 and 2014 and you can take a 6/6 indestructible down to a 6/4 and Mutilate for -4/-4 (controlling 4 swamps) so besides that in paper magic ive always used proper removal for indestuctibles either exile or -1/-1 x ? = or > than its toughness or forced sacrifice like Barter in Blood . I admit I was mistaken but fooled at the same time sorry. It was an eye opening thread but hay we all can be mistaken. Use tact when pointing it out and people won't get angry and make more mistakes or see you as one.
April 29, 2014 8:45 p.m.
I love magic. It's so damn complicated. You can't even imagine how my friends and I understood the rules when we were teens loll. It took years before we were told how the stack works loll. We didn't even speak English back then, so reading cards and rules was a bit tricky Loll, so we guessed a lot. Mtg is the most complex game system I've ever seen, and this is why I love this game so much.
April 30, 2014 1:37 a.m.
tyforthevenom says... #32
And to think some people call it "adult pokemon" and thus assume its for adults who act like kids
Zaghrog says... #2
With cards that reduce toughness like Bile Blight and Quag Sickness .
This doesn't really seem like a rules question though.
April 27, 2014 2:07 a.m.