Onko, Spell Brewer
Custom Cards forum
Posted on Jan. 20, 2016, 10:31 a.m. by bababen
the latest custom general i made let me know what you think
I think the wording is a little awkward. Maybe "If you would spend mana created by ~ on a creature or sorcery spell, you may cast it any time you could cast an instant."
January 20, 2016 10:53 a.m.
JWiley129 Ye. My first thought was actually to make a static abillity but i didnt want it to be nonland just sorcery and creatures and i felt that would be even stranger wording which i took btw from Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Quicken dbpunk so nothing akward here if you ask me (and wizard :3).
January 20, 2016 11:05 a.m.
Ledfeelcrank says... #5
Looks interesting! I like the temur feel it has while managing add a layer of depth to the colours, enabling a spell-slinger temur deck! I like it.
January 20, 2016 3:53 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #6
Soooo... Adding mana that allows you to cast spells as though they had flash doesn't actually work.
I actually have an upcoming article that explains more in detail why, but the short answer is that casting a spell is a seven-step process:
- Announce you are casting the spell
- Choose modes and other options, and decide the value of
if applicable - Choose targets
- Distribute effects among targets
- Total up the cost or costs
- Activate mana abilities
- Pay costs
The game checks if you are allowed to cast the spell you are trying to cast between steps 4 and 5, but at that stage the game doesn't know whether you are going to spend your special "flash mana" that this guy makes (since you decide that in step 7) and won't allow you to cast the spell.
January 25, 2016 4:09 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #7
So, I guess, there is an interesting question: how do we do what you are trying to do while making a card that works within the rules?
I ultimately couldn't figure it out. Here are some outtakes, though. The name has been changed becasuse all these designs are kinda wonky, as opposed to yours, which was pretty elegant.
Wonko, Spell Brewer, version 0.1
Hexproof
You may cast sorceries as though they had flash as long as Wonko, Spell Brewer is untapped.: Add
,
or
to your mana pool. If this mana is spent to cast an instant or sorcery spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilties.
The quirk of this version is that it works, but... Wonkily. You can activate mana abilities as part of casting a spell, on step 6, as I mentioned earlier. But you can also activate them earlier, float the mana and then start casting the spell. If you tap this guy while you are casting the spell, by the time he gets tapped the game will already have ok-ed the casting of the sorcery as though it had flash, so there are no problems. But if you tap him before-hand, the game will not allow you to cast the spell with flash, as the static ability is now turned off.
There is also the fact that this technically allows you to cast a bunch of spells with flash as long as you don't use it. So instead I tried:
Wonko, Spell Brewer, version 0.2
Hexproof
Whenever you tap Wonko, spell brewer for mana, the next sorcery card you cast this turn can be cast as though it had flash.
Well, this also is pretty wonky... It goes in the other direction: works if you tap him beforehand, doesn't work if you tap him during step 6, and in fact if you do that you get this non-intuitive scenario in which the ability will go on the stack after the spell is cast, and affects the next spell. Weird.
Maybe the best way to do what you are trying to do could be by using counter technology:
Wonko, Spell Brewer, version 1.0
Hexproof
You may cast sorceries as though they had flash as long as there are no Depletion counters on Wonko, Spell Brewer
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove all Depletion counters from Wonko
I feel that the main draw of your card was its elegance, and that is obviously gone in this revamp that makes it rules-compliant. There is also the fact that, like version 0.1 ,still allows you to cast a bunch of Quickened sorceries as ling as you don't tap this guy. At least it works in the same way whether you tap him before or after you start casting the spell.
Can anybody out there figure out how to make this work?
January 25, 2016 4:43 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #8
I think I got it:
Onko, Spell Brewer, version 1.1
Hexproof
If you cast a spell and Onko, Spell Brewer is untapped, you may tap Onko and add
Wow, this is clunky. It was kinda painful to write lol.
January 25, 2016 6:14 p.m.
Here, let me try:
Onko, Spell Brewer
Hexproof
: Reveal a instant or sorcery spell from your hand. Until end of turn, that spell can't be countered and if that spell is a sorcery, it gains flash. Add , or to your mana pool. If you do, mana added to your mana pool can't be used on other spells or abilities.
3/4
Would this work?
January 25, 2016 7:52 p.m.
It should be "mana added to your mana pool in this way can not be used on other spells or abilities."
January 25, 2016 7:53 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #11
The main difference is that bababen's design allows you to use the mana to cast non-instant, non-sorcery spells, you just get the bonus.
Other than that, I like how you think. You could template it as:
: Reveal a nonland card from your hand and add , or to your mana pool. Cast that card. Use mana added to your pool from this ability only to pay for the spell that card becomes. Until the end of this turn, if you cast an instant or sorcery this way, it can be cast as though it had flash and cannot be countered by spells or abilities.
Hmmm... Wait, maybe we can take a page from Lion's Eye Diamond to make Wonko 0.2 more reasonable...
Wonko, Spell Brewer, version 0.3
Hexproof
Whenever you tap Wonko, spell brewer for mana, the next instant or sorcery sorcery card you cast this turn can be cast as though it had flash.
January 25, 2016 9:13 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #12
Wait. Still doesn't QUITE work. You can use the ability, let the trigger go on the stack and respond with an instant by paying for it with the mana you made. That spell would be uncounterable but you would still "save" the flash-giving part of the ability for the next spell.
January 25, 2016 9:16 p.m.
I would avoid using nonland card, since that is some strong combo potential (i.e. getting all your combo pieces on the field). Any addition of Murkfiend Liege, Seedborn Muse or any similar cards wwould probably break the card if it was any nonland card.
Also, wouldn't that make the next spell you cast flash only? Not the spell you intended?
January 25, 2016 10:04 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #14
If you notice it lets you add mana for any spell but gives you flash and uncounterablity only for instants and sorceries, like the original card did.
As per the next spell problem - you mean my correction to your card or the card I posted afterwards?
January 26, 2016 12:37 a.m.
The card you posted afterwards. And I must have misread that, I see now that I was wrong.
January 26, 2016 12:39 a.m.
TheRedMage says... #16
Ah! But thanks to the Lion's Eye Diamond special text "Activate this ability only at any time you could cast an instant" (that is my second favorite piece of text to ever appear on a magic card by the way) you can only activate the ability before the casting of a spell, not during, so the next spell you cast is the right one. That still leaves the loophole I was talking about before, but maybe we can fix it like this:
Wonko, Spell Brewer, version 0.4
Creature - Ogre WizardHexproof
Whenever you tap Wonko, Spell Brewer for mana, if no spells were cast since it was tapped, the next instant or sorcery sorcery card you cast this turn can be cast as though it had flash.3/4
January 26, 2016 4:09 p.m.
That works better actually. Since it also reduces confusion about which spell gets flash. Not to mention, it keeps all the same stuff used prior.
January 26, 2016 4:16 p.m.
Ledfeelcrank says... #18
How about something that isn't directly a mana ability, but could add mana after it's resolution - like:
: The next creature or sorcery card you cast can't be countered by spells or abilities and can be cast as though it had flash. Untap up to one Forest, Island, or Mountain you control.
January 26, 2016 10:51 p.m.
That doesn't work as well though and is different from what makes him useful.
For one thing, he's a mana source in his own way in our version. MeaningMana Reflection hits him which is important when a lot of other spells don't. Otherwise he may be too powerful.
Next let's say you don't have any basic lands or lands that say mountain, island, or forest on them (which is possible in tricolor edh). Then he's too weak.
But if it only says target land, you could untap something like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and cast an abnormally huge Genesis Wave or Epic Experiment (or a Gaea's Cradle and say fuck everyone) or untap a Maze of Ith or use Academy Ruins and make your combo perfect. Which is also a problem.
Honestly as a mana dork with a way to make your best sorceries uncounterable instants is already powerful enough. Make it so it's a land and include creatures and you're gonna have way too much bomb in one little guy.
January 26, 2016 11:25 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #20
To be fair, there are a billion way to make a card that goes close to the elegance of the original and also does something very similar. Ledfeelcrank's design is one of them. If I were to try and put a similar ability using text that WotC could actually potentially print on a card (because let's face it, the design we arrived to isn't event close to being printable, seeing how clunky it is) I would probably use JWiley129's initial suggestion, and go with a static ability that allows you to cast a spell with flash per turn.
That isn't what dbpunk and I were trying to do, though. The problem we were trying to solve is how to create a card that did exactly what the card posted by bababen would have done if the rules had allowed it to (and did not have weird nonintuitive interactions relative to when you tapped it for mana).
JWiley129 says... #2
I'm not sure that you can add the "can be cast as though it had flash" to a mana ability. Maybe as a static ability "Once during each opponent's turn you may cast a creature or sorcery spell as though it had flash."?
January 20, 2016 10:46 a.m.