Story tiem! Proxies and salt.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 10, 2016, 5:51 p.m. by Tacticsninja16782
I want to preface this with something. I am not against proxies. I proxy with gold bordered world championship cards personally, and for the most part don't even mind people using sharpie for a dual land or two. But even I have my limits. Recently, JA14732 and I were in a three headed giant commander game. I played neku, him oloro, and player three used prosh. The other team consisted of kalemne, no proxies, muzzio (my muzzio), no proxies, and an almost entirely proxied animar deck. This person was proxying, and had been for a long time, a tier 0 commander. We won, due to more experience, better decks, better teamwork, and better plays. We had to end it early because the cardshop was about to close. I will refer to the opponents as players 1, 2, and salt. Players 1 and 2 were alright with the loss, expecting it from the get go and knowing we did not have much time left. However salt was pissed, ranting about a cheap loss. I would have felt bad, excepting he was proxying animar. Most of the deck nonetheless. If I had known he was playing it I might not have let him. What would you guys have done? Do any of you proxy that heavily and of that power level? What are your thoughts on proxies?
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #3
i currently have 2 decks with proxies. Teferi, Temporal Archmage with a proxy of the veil b/c I can't seem to find one, and gitrog proxying the original zendikar fetches and a crucible. no one has ever gotten upset about it.
August 10, 2016 5:56 p.m.
I only ever proxy for EDH when I own the card but do not feel like disassembling the deck to sleeve it up individually. My playgroup doesn't mind. For example, I own 4 Liliana of the Veil, but won't take them out of my Modern deck for EDH because I'm lazy. So I proxy it and no one cares because I own them.
August 10, 2016 6:06 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #5
Any amount of proxying is fine as long as the entire group is aware and ok with it. My personal preferences mostly aligns with Epoch's. Ideally proxies are used for testing purposes, for cards in transit, or to bring another deck "up to par" with the rest of the group.
August 10, 2016 6:07 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #6
Especially with EDH it all comes down to communication. Gotta figure out your preferences, and learn to discuss them so everyone can go into the game with reasonable expectations.
I personally do not like proxies. I have a friend that proxyed the cards he owned, but did not want to switch out to every deck (mana crypt). That sort of proxy is not something I do, but fine for me to play against. It did not change anything because I knew he owned the card, and had it right there.
I did play a guy that claimed he was building the deck, but had a 100% proxy deck. It just didn't feel right to me since I think getting the cards is part of the game. He played it for months, and never replaced any of the proxies with real cards.
It is all situational, and I generally lean towards no proxies at all, but will allow opponents to use them within reason usually. I do have some friends that still don't like the "new" borders(the 8th edition on ones) so even if I wanted to proxy I don't think it would fly.
Another thing is I try to have all budgets covered in the decks I bring, and let my opponent pick which one they want me to play. I just want to have some fun.
August 10, 2016 6:50 p.m.
I play in a VERY weird and specific meta. We're about an 8 in competitiveness on a scale from 0-10 and all of us full proxy multiple EDH decks. It's not unusual for people to have 3 to 8 fully proxied decks at all times. You'll find Mana Drain, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Imperial Seal, etc. all over the table.
I don't expect others to enjoy playing the game at our level nor do I expect them to be ok with proxying that much cash. Nonetheless, it's how we enjoy playing the game and it solves many of the issues our group would otherwise face.
When we play in competitive shop events or set up games elsewhere, we always take out our far less tuned decks with real cards. Most of us have even made several decks with different budgets and power-levels in mind just to accommodate players from every spectrum of play.
As long as the group you're dealing with is ok with what's going on, anything is fair game. It's simple, really: don't be a dick.
August 10, 2016 8:02 p.m.
Tacticsninja16782 says... #8
TheDevicerThat's interesting. I probably wouldn't mind your meta as long as people didn't whine if they lost. I think my biggest problem with this guy was just that.
August 10, 2016 8:42 p.m.
I didn't mind proxy decks, but I recently ran into a kid who would just grab at my graveyard or deck (if an ability let him) with zero regard to the very expensive cards that I've worked hard for. I'll probably never play against a proxied deck again, since their commanders seem to have less regard to the value of other players stuff.
August 10, 2016 8:48 p.m. Edited.
Tacticsninja16782 says... #10
mentor6 Yeah, that would bother me too, but I think it has more to do with him being a kid and not as much to do with him using proxies. Still, I know what that is like.
August 10, 2016 8:58 p.m.
Randomdeath says... #11
I personally don't mind the proxies I have one of a Volcanic Island (cause yeah that price tag) and no one minds that I have it. I also have a guy who has like 10-15 decks with only one deck that's all the real cards but every card proxied is a card that he owns so no really minds those decks plus he's that guy who lives to play edh and will love for you to play with him even if you forgot your deck at home or just didn't have one.
August 10, 2016 9:03 p.m.
Tacticsninja16782 says... #12
I don't mind as much when people have the cards and proxy. What bothers me is people full out proxying tier 0 decks and just playing them for months on end. If someones meta doesn't mind, fine, that's just me. But if you are going to proxy that level of power, you have no place to complain if you lose.
August 10, 2016 9:06 p.m.
Shane.Allen says... #13
I personally think this kid you were playing with is a dick and a sore loser. I have friends that don't have a lot of money that proxy out decks to test them or because they do want to build them but just don't have the money right now. I myself proxy out for play-testing purposes because you want to make sure it works before you spend thousands of dollars on a deck. It seems to me people get pissed mostly because they lose but that's all part of the game. If you don't like losing maybe you shouldn't play, if you are going to whine about losing you really shouldn't play.
August 10, 2016 9:15 p.m.
I guess, since I was summoned and was in this game, I should have a little input.
The salty player proxies every card, ranging from a Reclamation Sage to a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth in his deck. Now, was I rude for Dark Petition'ing a Leyline of the Void with a Helm of Obedience in hand with 10 minutes until the shop closed? I don't know. However, my opinion is that proxies are typically fine, just as long as you are actively looking for replacements, testing a new deck, or have had your playgroup agree on it. Otherwise, you should open with that conversation instead of just showing up and getting mad when someone who has invested their time, effort and money into building a feasible decklist shows up, plays well, and wins with a combo kill (granted, one that had happened to him on turn 2 before, but a combo kill nevertheless).
That's what made me angry, the sheer disregard of my effort, the lack of respect for me, the cursing at me for showing respect to the store operator....
Simply, as someone who was in this story, proxies are fine, just as long as you talk to your playcircle about them. Also, just don't be a dick.
August 10, 2016 9:34 p.m.
Shane.Allen says... #15
JA14732, I couldn't agree with you more. If you play your guts out, play your best and lose its not fun but at least you tried. I'm never happy when I lose, but I don't get all pissy about it, specially if I'm play-testing a new deck that I may have proxied out. This kid proxies out a Tier 1 deck and then gets pissed cause you combed off. That's just being a dick and I would tell him that. :)
August 10, 2016 9:45 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #16
I don't like proxies except of a card that the player owns some number of but that they don't want to move. MTG prices are ridiculous though and I don't blame others for proxying, but I do get a little angry when they proxy cards that they have no intention of buying just to play at a higher power level than the rest of the table. Those people annoy me.
It seems that the fact that this guy proxied is a bit tangential to the actual problem though. He was running Animar. Now I know well that this deck can be built "fair" since that is how mine is built. However, the build is usually a combo build and most people who proxy Animar are not the type to brew their own. If he is running a combo deck and gets mad at a combo finish in another deck then he needs to think long and hard about what he expects out of a game.
As a combo player I know well the vitriol that gets thrown at combo finishes. People call them "cheap" and "uncreative". They think that somehow their fun is more important than yours and that you are responsible for them having fun. If they would like to find a playgroup that doesn't allow combo that is on them, but the hypocrisy of running a combo deck and getting mad about another player comboing off is unacceptable. It doesn't matter if they run 100% proxies right down to "Island" sharpied on a swamp or if they have physical copies of every card in their deck up to Tropical Island and Volcanic Island.
August 10, 2016 11 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #17
I've had a VERY similar experience, almost identical actually. Except the salty player I was against was playing an entirely proxied Narset deck. I'm not very fond of the idea of running a 100% proxied ass hole combo deck when you don't own a single copy of any of the cards.
August 10, 2016 11:25 p.m.
Well put Gidge. I really didn't care about his proxies, but rather the hypocrisy and disrespect that came with the proxies and the game.
Yes, I get it, some people don't like tutors, some people don't like combo and some people think that my decks are a bit above our playcircle's powerlevel. But in the end, if you don't like what's happening, just have a discussion about your grievances and try to work something out. Don't just get salty and bitch at others because they do something you don't like, ESPECIALLY if they actually put the time and effort into building their deck to that point while you just printed out fake versions of cards.
August 10, 2016 11:32 p.m.
DeathChant17 says... #19
Personally I stay away from proxies and I encourage my playgroup to do the same.
Of course, I don't mind someone using a few if they are waiting for ordered cards to arrive or are playtesting a card or two.
But if you have more than 5 proxies, or all your proxies are super expensive cards that the group knows you'll most likely never buy and/or absolutely ruin the table for everyone else, then we don't allow it.
Otherwise, why wouldn't we all? Why even buy real cards?
Gold bordered championship cards are fine as permanent placeholders as long as they are sleeved. Even my LGS allows them in tournament play, but straight up printed, cut, and glued on a basic land proxies aren't allowed, and I only allow them in my house because I don't want it ever coming back to bite me if I ever run into a situation where I'd like to proxy a card or two.
August 11, 2016 8:30 a.m.
I don't really try to proxy for the simple fact that I'd much rather play with the stuff I can readily get, and damned if I don't have the money for it. Sure, I'll probably proxy out some ABUR duel lands for commander at some point, but that's only until I can find the resources to buy them up myself. That goes for every other card I would want.
Besides, it's just not the same feeling to play with a deck that isn't as authentic as it could be.
August 11, 2016 9:25 a.m.
If the proxies are of a decent quality, I do not mind. When someone's deck is made up of lands scribbled on with a sharpie, I have a serious problem with that. The EDH format leans towards complicated board states, and lengthy games. After a couple of hours scribbled on plains start to blend together. That kind of proxing I see as borderline cheating.
August 11, 2016 3:43 p.m.
I fucking hate when people sharpie on cards or write on slips of paper and slip them in front of cards. My group uses pretty high quality proxies. Here's an example:
The card on the right is a real NM version of the card. The card on the left is a Fleetfeather Sandals. In front of it, I've printed a copy of the card using bluebones. It's printed using a cheap printer on normal printer paper. Nothing special is going on here.
The whole point is to have easily legible and recognizable cards. Make things easy for everyone involved.
August 11, 2016 4:18 p.m.
TheDevicer bluebones....O.o you sir have altered my life. My cube is going to be amazing now. THANK YOU
August 11, 2016 4:45 p.m.
BTW, what I also do is I take the entire decklist I need to print, hit Ctrl+A, then Ctrl+C, and port the thing over to a word document. I then adjust margins to narrow and make sure I have no spacing anywhere. This way, you get 9 proxies per letter size page with no white space in between the cards that are properly sized. If you spend some time on cutting the cards well or you're blessed with access to a paper trimmer, the proxies come out looking fantastic.
I've watched ALL of Archer while cutting proxies. Gives you an idea of how much I tinker with decks.
August 11, 2016 5:10 p.m.
My God, TheDevicer. Not only are you blowing my mind, but that was the perfect GIF.
August 11, 2016 5:19 p.m. Edited.
Didgeridooda says... #26
I see the higher quality ones the same as sharpie on a swamp.
August 11, 2016 7:21 p.m.
This is how our play group does proxies too. It frees up some trade bait in the binders also.
August 11, 2016 8:56 p.m.
This is how our play group does proxies too. It frees up some trade bait in the binders also.
August 11, 2016 8:58 p.m.
libraryjoy says... #30
As someone who works in a public service industry.... thank you for ending the game and respecting the shop owner who wanted to close up and go home. That other fellow should not have complained when it was that close to closing time. If he had the ability to end the game, he should have. If not, there are other things more important than a win or loss in a card game. And the goodwill of the shop's owner is definitely one of them.
August 11, 2016 9:25 p.m.
00xtremeninja says... #31
I don't care about proxies, and use proxied dual lands in my other decks (bear in mind, I own a single copy of every ABUR dual, and like many am not going to be able to afford legit copies for every deck). People proxying an entire deck is ridiculous and I have played against those folks before, but only in a casual setting, so it doesn't grind my gears a ton. Just make it look like the card and not a Sharpie and we are golden.
Thing is though, you can proxy out the best of the best deck with all of the money cards you want, but if you are shit at playing it, then it doesn't matter if you own the cards or not. Magic takes skill and strategy got sure, but there is also a bit of luck involved. All the top cards in the world don't matter if you never draw them or find a way to get them into your hand.
August 13, 2016 11:45 a.m.
Deckologist says... #32
I'm pretty snobby when it comes to proxies. My group has made it a point to not use them simply because we have agreed that it cheapens the efforts other players have made to make a great deck. There's nothing more annoying seeing a force of will or Jace the mind sculptor from From the vaults: Lexmark
August 20, 2016 4:09 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #33
Salt is a whiny little shit.
Generally, I dislike proxies unless a player is in financial trouble (life happens) or has a good reason to do so... basically any of the reasons Epochalyptik gave. Other than that? Get that shit out of here.
August 22, 2016 3:08 a.m.
paloflimdul says... #34
Sounds like our group house rule is similar to others. If you own it, you can proxy it. But that means if you have 4 proxy Badlands in your deck, you better own 4 Badlands (not just one).
Epochalyptik says... #2
Proxies are fine if you're testing a deck or if you ordered cards and they're not there yet. If you're proxying with no intention of acquiring those cards in the immediate future, you're welcome to find a playgroup that doesn't mind.
August 10, 2016 5:53 p.m.