Opinion Poll: EDH, which is more banworthy, Sol Ring or Demonic Tutor?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 24, 2019, 6:28 p.m. by StopShot
First of all this an opinion poll. There is no right or wrong answer here. The point of this poll is not to get any card banned, but to ask the question, "which is arguably more problematic in the EDH format?"
Lets say as a wild scenario you were nominated and forced to ban one of the following sets of cards in EDH:
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OR
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If you pick Sol Ring then the cards Sol Ring , Mana Crypt and Mana Vault will be banned in Commander. If you pick Demonic Tutor then the cards Demonic Tutor , Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal will be banned in Commander. You must pick one of the two sets of cards even if you think neither (or both) should be banned. What would be your decision and why? Do you think your decision would be more biased due to the decks you play or the decks you play against? Please keep opinions respectful, thank you.
Rabid_Wombat says... #3
As someone who uses all of the above I'd say that the Tutors impact games more and are definitely an unfair advantage if your opponents aren't playing Black or be broke and playing Diabolic Tutor etc..
We are playing with 100 card decks so anything that allows us to search for answers to problems or combo pieces has the potential to be busted.
But I have found that a first turn Sol Ring wins more games than any first turn Black tutor ever could. I say reprint a watered down version of Sol Ring with the stipulation "You may not play this card on your first or second turn." Mana Crypt and Mana Vault are cute but not cray...especially when one can deal you thirty points of damage in a game (yes, I lost that one lol)
So yeah, ban the tutors as they are all more format warping than the artefacts - peace!
November 24, 2019 6:53 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Ban fast mana, tutors reward planning and knowing your deck. Fast mana rewards luck. I personally like consistency and planning in a game over variance and "the heart of the cards".
November 24, 2019 6:54 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #5
I personally think tutors are fine. Fast mana like sol ring become auto includes in every deck. Yes the tutors go in any black deck but fast mana accelerates play and is way easier to have a busted start. Demonic tutor helps you get an answer. Sol ring puts you a turn ahead mana wise when it drops and 2 ahead for the rest of the game
November 24, 2019 7:16 p.m.
Tutors Let you win the game or preventing someone from winning the game, while fast mana gives you the mana to play those tutors. It’s just a matter of opinion.
November 24, 2019 7:37 p.m.
Megalomania says... #7
Tutors are mainly black's shtick. Leave them alone. lol
November 24, 2019 7:51 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #8
At my lgs there was a banned list that banned every positive mana rock and degenerate established win condition. You know what happened? The meta just hard shifted to elves and najeela combo decks. Banning things never really fixes anything. People just adapt. Cheap mana acceleration is what polarizes games; so if I had to choose itd be rocks.
November 24, 2019 8:32 p.m.
I would remove the mana rocks. One set of cards makes the combo happen more often. The other set of cards makes the combo happen much sooner. Most combos I can counter or stop by turn 5, but turn 2 or 3 is too obnoxious. The other thing is tutors are restricted to one color and are mostly any good for combo decks whereas manarocks can help "cheat" massive fatties or multiple prison pieces early on the board and the rocks can go in any deck and strategy, whereas non-combo decks don't really need the tutors and if they do include them the best thing to tutor would likely be Sol Ring . Without tutors I feel like combo decks would only be as viable in 99 singleton formats as burn is in multiplayer 40 life formats, but I only say that because I only enjoy playing passive combo decks.
November 24, 2019 10:08 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #11
Neither. Let people do their thing! People I know play EDH to do some whacky and/or oppressive shit and running both tutors and good mana rocks helps us get there. Also #BlackTutorsMatter
November 24, 2019 11:37 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #12
Gidgetimer actually, tutors are what cause that guy you don’t like to spend TEN MINUTES looking through his deck for what he wants to play.
RNR_Gaming, I’m not sure how crazy your meta’s banlist is, but I’d say that banning in moderation is a very healthy thing. When players aren’t on the same page about how casual the environment is, that’s the problem. People have every right to do busted things, they just need to warn Johnnies like me so we can move to another table.
Wanna hear my hot take? In a casual meta, neither Demonic Tutor NOR Sol Ring is busted!! How on earth could this be? Well, we interact. We throw haymakers and removal around like candy, and in the end, it all balances out.
November 24, 2019 11:57 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
ZendikariWol: No, incompetence is what causes people to take ten minutes looking for what they want to play. I don't really think either needs banned, but that wasn't the constraint of the question. The question was pick exactly one group.
November 25, 2019 12:31 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #14
Gidgetimer I wouldn’t necessarily qualify not knowing your deck card-for-card as “incompetence.” Some people don’t build their own decks, and those people may still be decent Magic players.
It’s good that you pointed out my iffy phrasing, though. I was just using parallelism to point out the multiple effects of tutors.
November 25, 2019 1:23 a.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #15
ZendikariWol Not knowing your deck card-for-card is incompetence. Nothing triggers me more than some stoner n00b spending ten plus minutes going through his deck while everyone else Twiddle s their thumbs. I ain't got time for that.
November 25, 2019 3:05 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #16
ZendikariWol I don't play in non-tournment events at my store anymore; if I sit down at a tournment with prize support I paid to play in, I'll play what I want. If someone wants to sit down and play a game with nothing on the line I'll dull down as close as I can to what they're playing. For the most part my meta is split. Having a conversation before a game starts is exactly what everyone should be doing so there isnt any unnecessary salt. It's really good that you do that.
November 25, 2019 3:08 a.m.
SP3CTR3_chelts says... #17
Personally i do not think either sets should be banned. However if i did have to ban one i think it should be the tutors. It makes games repetitive, banning the rocks will only just add a turn to most games
November 25, 2019 4:52 a.m.
mortifolkmurphcaster says... #19
First my opinion is representative of a casual or focused environment not competitive. As far as impact I believe the tutors to be more consistently impactful than the mana. Being able to get whatever you need out of ~100 cards does way more versus being ahead a few mana on random cards. I usually just see sol ring, signet, go, in a casual game and then they just fizzle out and everyone catches up. I'd say in competitive fast mana is doing a lot more than in casual and in that setting mana and tutors are pretty much on even keel.
November 25, 2019 7:39 a.m.
Dredge4life says... #20
I don’t think we should ban anything. These cards are powerful, but not inherently broken.
November 25, 2019 7:41 a.m.
In reality neither. They aren't really making or breaking anyone.
I would be more on board with banning all of specifically Vampiric Tutor , Imperial Seal , Mana Crypt , and Mana Vault .
Leave Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor specifically unbanned.
My opinion
November 25, 2019 8:39 a.m.
I say ban the rocks. They allow decks to do too much to fast.
November 25, 2019 10:01 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #23
Neither of these are banworthy, so the question is which one is less impactful negatively if it does get banned, which would be the tutors. More people are negatively impacted if the colorless cards get banned.
November 25, 2019 10:12 a.m.
I say ban Mana Crypt and Imperial Seal for the crime of being absurdly expensive for no good reason. Those cards are only pricey because of low supply created by WotC even though they aren't played anywhere but EDH. There is no reason for non reserve list EDH only cards to cost so much... its just corporate greed. Also they should abolish the reserve list, its not helping anyone play this wonderful game, 99% of the time its doing the exact opposite.
Or just reprint them a ton and don't ban anything, I like that much better!
November 25, 2019 10:56 a.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #25
I stand by my assessment that the only reason to take ten minutes to search a deck is incompetence. Hell, the only two reasons a turn ever takes more than 5 minutes is incompetence or being a game winning combo turn.
November 25, 2019 2:20 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #26
Gidgetimer My game winning combo (hulkweaver... i.e. tutor out all my combo pieces) turn takes 2-3 minutes if people don't just F6 normally a lot less because people I play usually concede if they don't have interaction once I am to a certain point. My deck runs 23 cards that cause some sort of search effect (16 if you don't count fetchlands) and every single time I search I have a specific card in mind before I even cast my tutor so I don't slow the game to a halt.
Long story short, if someone plays tutors they should probably know their deck pretty well to not annoy the heck out of their playgroup.
November 25, 2019 2:30 p.m. Edited.
DemonDragonJ says... #27
I personally believe that none of those deserve to be banned, and that any player who seeks to ban them is being bitter about them; they are all powerful, but do not break the format in the way that cards that are actually banned would (such as Biorhythm , Primeval Titan , or the power nine).
December 10, 2019 10:25 p.m.
How would biorythm break the game if it where unbanned?
Suns_Champion says... #2
Ban tutors. Tutors make the game repetitive and boring anyway. Black has plenty of other tutors and arguably the best draw too.
November 24, 2019 6:42 p.m.