Is there a better feeling in cEDH than...

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on Aug. 1, 2021, 11:08 a.m. by jaymc1130

Hijacking some one's Intuition with Oppo Agent when they attempt to go for the win?

5 for 1. You get a body, they lose a tutor some piece of protection and a full combo. Value just doesn't get any better and the inevitable win that comes off the back of this feels just so good.

I'm okay with the Hullbreacher ban, but really, I've had enough of this play in cEDH already. 6 months of this, nonstop, where from turn 1 on in every game you have to walk on eggshells if any opponent has open a single black mana.

It's time to hit the real problem and bench the OP Agent too, this card is just too out of hand. I'm getting very bored blasting opponents with this nonsense every game.

DrukenReaps says... #2

Opposition Agent for folks that don't know what an oppo is.

You know as well as I do that the rules committee doesn't give 2 shits about cEDH. Unless they perceive something to be an issue at casual tables they won't lift a finger... and frankly I think that sucks.

August 1, 2021 11:30 a.m.

Caerwyn says... #3

Opposition Agent was a poorly designed card, and one Wizards should never have allowed to exist in the first place. What makes it worse? Everyone--including Wizards--knows that White struggles in EDH, but one of its greatest boons is its ability to punish searching with cards like Aven Mindcensor . With one card, Wizards created something that, when on the battlefield, does White's traditional effect better than any White card. But that is not the worst part--the threat of Agent is much greater than the threat of any White card--thus, even off the battlefield, it paralyzes play in a way none of its White brethren do.

DrukenReaps - I'm not sure you can say that there shouldn't be any banlist beyond banned as commander on one thread, then turn around the next day and say it "sucks" that the RC does not do anything about Opposition Agent the next day!

August 1, 2021 11:41 a.m.

jaymc1130 says... #4

Caerwyn

Yep. It’s one thing to have the stock standard mass Mexican stand-off be a common game state when players get a chance to develop, but a single card creating this game state every game on turn 1 is ridiculous. If a Swamp hits the board that’s it, no one gets to do anything truly proactive for the rest of the game or else they give the game away to the next opponent in turn order. I’ve never, in almost 30 years of playing magic, wanted a card to simply never have existed until WotC royally goofed making this abomination. I want one of those Men in Black memory eraser things used on every magic player and all Wizards employees while some one collects every copy of the Agent and burns them all to ash. It’s for our own good.

August 1, 2021 12:07 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #5

DrukenReaps Multiple members of the RC play cEDH and care about the health of the format. If oppo becomes as much of an issue as flash (I believe it's close if not better due to not requiring a deck built around it, but certainly less game-ending) they most likely will ban it, as they did with flash for cEDH.

jaymc1130 my play around it is based on other forms of search and card advantage, so while I still run tutors, I run a lot less, I was on Once Upon a Time and similar effects and managed to get around most agents and never felt too affected like it seems your meta is having issues with.

That being said the lists I've run have been hurt more by breacher, but with that banned I feel much safer, and treasures instead of free Praetor's Grasp s I'll take.

August 1, 2021 12:09 p.m.

I’m torn, because I LOVE the idea of punishing tutors... but to give it to black, one of the most tutor-heavy colors, seems sort of ridiculous. It’s on-theme, but I feel like you could have made it white with a minor name change (Good-Hearted Whistleblower or something). Probably should have made it just until end of turn, too. Oof.

August 1, 2021 12:17 p.m.

Having said all that ((DEEP BREATH)) it dies to removal so it’s no big deal ;p

August 1, 2021 12:18 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #8

SynergyBuild

Yeah, we’ve been resorting to filter effects more often than outright tutors lately. Doesn’t change anything about playing on Untap or MtgO though, way too many free wins for me. It’s almost become entirely pointless for me to even attempt to test competitive concepts outside that group, the general cEDH community of players just can’t handle competitive play at all. I’ve got like 200 games of data from Untap alone that I have to throw out because a 70% win rate isn’t remotely realistic in true competitive settings. I’ve tried some play over discord as well, but the players seemed even less capable if that’s even possible. I feel like I’ve wasted a couple hundred hours “proving” what we knew about this card the moment it got spoiled and it seems a bit of a waste in the absence of identifying a true counter. At least with Flash we solved that issue in the span of like 20 games of testing and theory crafting to come up with the Inception Extract based strategy.

August 1, 2021 12:22 p.m.

DrukenReaps says... #9

Caerwyn the "only having a banned as commander list" is a dream that will never come true. I can talk about it all I want but I have to live in reality at the end of the day. Which means I'm stuck with a ban list that bans things based on an arbitrary spirit.

August 1, 2021 12:28 p.m.

Peoyogon says... #10

I am quite perplexed at the logic behind arguing for CEDH-based bans. Of course the RC isn't making consistent bans based on competive circles; EDH is explicitly, and in no uncertain terms, focused on casual play. In my mind, this is just as ridiculous as requesting WOTC ban The Great Henge just because I'm having a hard time dealing with it in my super casual 'Modern' kitchen-table group. Obviously Wizards is only going to implement bans in Modern when it becomes a problem in competitive circuits and not off of my casual gameplay - that's what the format is built around.

I just think it's strange to take the only casually-focused format, break it, and then wonder why the RC won't fix it? Talk with your group about house banning problematic or homogeneous archetypes/cards (like any other EDH group) or simply find any other like-minded completive-focused format, like Legacy, to play - simple as that.

August 1, 2021 12:41 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #11

Peoyogon I personally don't argue for or against bans. The RC has done cEDH bans before, specifically recently in the case of Flash , and they most likely will eventually do some in the future. I don't really care either way when they do or don't.

August 1, 2021 2:35 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #12

I, on the other hand, definitely do care about bans for cEDH. Or rather, a ban. I didn’t care about Flash (that card/combo was so ridiculously overrated it’s insane to think about) or PE. Or anything else really. I’ve only cared about a ban list for cEDH when it comes to a single card. The Agent. The RC can slap it on a list by itself and the format is fine and dandy as far as I’m concerned. Even the Breacher is less fundamentally problematic for the format in general, though it has been more universally impactful.

August 1, 2021 2:44 p.m. Edited.

Named_Tawyny says... #13

Oppo Agent is good for the format actually. It's good for the format at both casual and competitive levels.

At casual, it discourages tutors (and discouraging tutors is a good thing for a format where variance is a big part of the way the format was designed). In competitive, you can deal with it pretty easily - yes, it can steal one tutor from you, but after that, you just deal with it, and don't tutor until you've gotten it off the table.

Banning Oppo agent would be a mistake.

August 1, 2021 4:19 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #14

Named_Tawyny

It’s like you didn’t read the OP of the thread mate. Try re-reading the OP and see if any of your statements actually make sense in that context. This is a resolved Agent that immediately resulted in a win game upon resolution. 3 mana, 1 card, instant speed game win.

August 1, 2021 4:44 p.m.

Named_Tawyny says... #15

jaymc1130

Sure, that's one situation where it brought the game to a win. Being able to win a game with a card isn't banworthy in and of itself - there are lots of cards that can win you the game when you play them.

Double-plus when it relies on your opponent playing a specific card that you then respond to.

August 1, 2021 4:47 p.m.

Named_Tawyny says... #16

Like, I get that you're salty because the win you were expecting evaporated because you (a blue player!) didn't hold up counters or other effects to stop your Intuition being interacted with.

But you losing a game doesn't necessitate a ban.

August 1, 2021 4:54 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #17

I think you need to read Tawyny. I’m the person playing the Agent mate... and I make this exact play to win games (allegedly played by other competitive players who’s competitiveness is questionable) all day erry day. At least once a day if I play a cEDH session that day. Intuition is the most common tutor in cEDH right now given it’s synergy with so many combos.

I get that you have an opinion on a topic, but at least try to be respectful by reading the topic and the conversation following it for threads you choose to post in. It’s just the least you can do to be courteous and respectful to the conversation and it’s posters’.

August 1, 2021 5:14 p.m.

Named_Tawyny says... #18

If you don't like playing Oppo, then you have yet another choice - just don't play it.

Nothing you have said here necessitates a ban.

And again, the fact that Oppo makes people think twice about playing Intuition is a good thing. Strong tutors aren't great for the format as a whole.

August 1, 2021 7:15 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #19

Named_Tawyny

No, it's all the other numerous extremely detailed reasons I've listed in previous threads as this conversation has evolved over the last 9 months that's why the Agent should be removed from the format. It shouldn't have ever existed in the format in the first place.

This is like my 4th thread in the last year specifically related to OP agent. Again, if you can't or won't bother to read and comprehend the previous elements of the discussion then it's best not to comment at all mate. I could sit here and waste time retyping 1000s of words I've already typed so that you can be a proper part of this conversation and actually understand what is being discussed... or you can maybe put in, say, a minimal amount of effort and at least have a basic comprehension of the topic before deciding to jump into it with some rather silly posts that either totally don't apply to the topic at hand or were previously refuted in unequivocal fashion. You'll notice everyone else posting so far has been party to these previous posts. As well as this, not one of us is rehashing concerns that have been previously addressed. It's mostly us just restating that our stance hasn't changed or that it has why it has and how we feel in the wake of Hullbreacher's ban.

Lastly, if you don't think a 3 mana single card combo win that inherently protects itself on resolution is problematic in competitive play in this format then this is definitely not a discussion for you in the first place. That reality needs no discussion what so ever for literally everyone with minimal logical deduction skills to know it's fundamentally a problem. Is that a conditional best case scenario? Yeah. Does it happen often enough for it to be relevant? Oh hells yes. Literally every single day. According to the data I track, in fact, it occurs in nearly 15% of total games played. Not a similar scenario mind you, that EXACT scenario with EXACTLY those cards in 1 out of every 6 games. It's that common in competitive play.

This is not actually an OP Agent thread at this point, it's a "PSA: Stop casting Intuition without back up into opponents with black mana up in competitive settings" thread.

August 1, 2021 10:50 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #20

Named_Tawyny Yeah you keep actively misreading what jaymc1130 writes, like I've consistently won games from dark ritual into oppo and it's been wayy too easy. Last time I had 3 mana one card combos that instantly won Trade Secrets was still legal, and at least that didn't work when opponents had proper interaction or played properly. Oppo can steal another copy of itself so when you shut down the table until they kill it you flash in another copy when the next tutor is played (Oppo chaining as they call it).

August 2, 2021 9:01 a.m. Edited.

RambIe says... #21

i used to be completely against banning any card in edh, arguing that power level of any card could be off set by reverting mulligan rules to lower the probabilities of the card to appear, and that any card that is that over powered should be offset with a new mechanic added to the game to decrease its power level.
however my mind has changed. over the past two years i have seen multiple cards that should have never been printed and there is just no way other then a ban to bring back the balance.
flash speed is not over powered
stopping opponents from searching is not overpowered
controlling an opponents search and exiling the card is pretty powerful
being able to play the exiled card ? i don't understand why they are supporting this function so much. its like they want to help make lgs theifs jobs easier (o o o i didn't mean to steal their card i just forgot it was on my board when i cleaned up, they should have payed more attention to there cards even though i had like half there deck)
doing all of the above for only 3 cmc and no downsides to casting isn't just broken its stupid what was the point of making op agent?
what part of the format was so broken that it required a card like this to be printed ?

August 2, 2021 4:58 p.m.

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