Selvala shenanigans
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on Sept. 19, 2015, 2:34 p.m. by -Fulcrum
The Selesnya Brick Road Playtest
Commander / EDH*
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This is my attempt at a selvala edh deck. This is meant specifically for casual. By casual, I mean no infinite combos. Finite combos are fine. And there is no budget. So. Does anyone have any recommendations for shenanigans? I want this deck to be fun, not just strong.
jordansgoldowl says... #3
my selvala deck uses
Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder
Avacyn, Angel of Hope + Novablast Wurm
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Living Plane
one card I suggest you add is Concordant Crossroads
September 21, 2015 1:26 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #4
As for shenanigans, Selvala is a card that can cause shenanigans just by being Selvala.
From Gatherer:
If you activate Selvalas ability while casting a spell, and you discover you can't produce enough mana to pay that spells costs, the spell is reversed. The spell returns to whatever zone you were casting it from. You may reverse other mana abilities you activated while casting the spell, but Selvalas ability can't be reversed. Whatever mana that ability produced will be in your mana pool and each player will have drawn a card.
Think about what this could do if you have something like Panglacial Wurm in your library. Think about how it interacts with anything that lets you cast off the top of your library... there's probably a lot of things you can do with her that will make judges want to slap you.
It's a very silly card.
September 21, 2015 2:08 a.m.
ComradeJim270, is there any way you know to explain that ruling to me? Because that is the most confusing thing I've ever read.
September 21, 2015 2:30 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #6
I'm not entirely sure I can, which was kind of my point.
September 21, 2015 2:39 a.m.
I'm the honorary judge in my playgroup (I've studied but am not official) and I cannot make heads or tails of what that even says.
September 21, 2015 2:41 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #8
Selvala's ability is a mana ability that AFAIK does not one but two things no other mana ability does: produces a theoretically unknown amount of mana, and draws cards.
If it turns out you can't pay for a spell you cast, that spell goes back to your hand but you still end up drawing a card. You could also cast a spell, have someone target it with a counterspell, and then fail to pay the cost with Selvala... so you know your opponent has a counterspell but both spells fail to cast and go back to their owners' hands.
And if you attempt to cast a Panglacial Wurm from your library using Selvala and fail to get enough mana? I don't think anyone is sure what happens, then. Well, judges who see it happening might get headaches... but I mean, in the game.
September 21, 2015 2:51 a.m.
Though often players will likely "float" the mana first to see how much many you would have available. The key point is that Selvala, Explorer Returned's ability is a mana ability and that paying for your spell is one of the last actions taken of the steps to cast it.
So this ruling addresses the situation of when you declare that your casting a spell and attempt to use Selvala, Explorer Returned ability to pay for it and find you don't have enough. Not unlike the fix that's applied when players discover that they don't have the right colors of mana after declaring the spell.
September 21, 2015 2:59 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #10
The thing is, there are scenarios where you may actually know you won't have enough mana. It's very weird.
September 21, 2015 3:05 a.m.
- You could also cast a spell, have someone target it with a counterspell.
This situation could not occur. The spell won't be on the stack until you've finished paying for it. Your opponent neither has priory during this process nor does their Counterspell have a valid target yet.
- And if you attempt to cast a Panglacial Wurm from your library using Selvala and fail to get enough mana? I don't think anyone is sure what happens, then. Well, judges who see it happening might get headaches... but I mean, in the game.
The ruling pretty plainly states that "The spell returns to whatever zone you were casting it from." So if you're casting it from the library it just goes back to the library. So you'd attempt to cast Panglacial Wurm, discover you couldn't pay for it, and then put it back where it was before continuing with the search effect. Note that this would still draw you the top card of your library and then it needs to stay in order until it would otherwise be shuffled, usually at the end of most search effects.
After you cast Panglacial Wurm, you pick up the search effect where you left off. When the search effect finishes resolving, the active player gets priority with Panglacial Wurm on the stack. Any abilities that triggered when the spell was cast are put on the stack now.
While searching your library, you must keep your library in the same order until you shuffle it. This order could matter if you tap Millikin for mana, for example, to pay for a Panglacial Wurm you cast from your library.
September 21, 2015 3:09 a.m. Edited.
ComradeJim270 says... #12
Ah, you're right. There was some weird interaction with counterspells and Selvala, but I can't remember what it was.
For the wurm thing... it's just weird. Obviously, the wurm itself would stay in the library.
The most obvious and unethical way to abuse that is to straight-up cheat by moving cards around which would be fairly easy to do. That already makes Selvala a frustrating card. But even if you didn't, you know what you'd parley into. The real weirdness is that you're attempting to do something that will draw you a card while you're searching your library. Nothing else in the game will do that.
And if you have ways to untap Selvala? You can do this repeatedly while you search, knowing exactly what card is going to be drawn into your hand. Which is where you're doing actually game-legal shenanigans.
September 21, 2015 3:16 a.m. Edited.
I originally built this deck to be fair and fun. Now I'm not sure what direction to go. It sounds like it can be absolutely brutally powerful.
September 21, 2015 3:24 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #14
I wouldn't worry about it too much, vault. Most of the stuff we're talking about ranges from "a bit shady" to straight-up cheating. It's just a bit of a tangent since I was thinking about how bizarre things can get with Selvala and I apologize for taking the thread off-track like that.
Back on track... she can certainly be a fair commander. As I said in my original post, some playgroups tend to target Selvala players while others will let you parley all day long. I've seen her most commonly played as a group hug commander (which can backfire spectacularly), elfball, or ramp into fatties. The latter two routes are probably the best choice for a fun and fair deck. Choosing one of these options will help you decide what shenanigans you'd like to get up to.
Really powerful Selvala lists are usually stax lists, which are out of the question if fun is the goal.
September 21, 2015 3:36 a.m.
True. I was thinking of maybe using Umbral Mantle and Mana Reflection to make everyone draw out their whole decks, while ensuring I don't lose with Green Sun's Zenith. Selesnya Mill. Sounds fun.
One way or another, I'm gonna rework the deck (now private, sorry about that) to truly abuse shenanigans.
September 21, 2015 3:38 a.m. Edited.
ComradeJim270 says... #16
Oh, and here is where you will see what others are running in Selvala. You can see examples of the deck types I mentioned above. Lots of elf tribal and big things. Also ways to untap Selvala.
I was under the impression you didn't want to go infinite. If you did, making everyone else deck themselves out would be possible. And of course green always has Tooth and Nail. That is often regarded in very casual groups as decidedly unfair though since entwining it usually means you win.
September 21, 2015 3:45 a.m.
Oh yea, my playgroup is kind of hyper competitive, I just wanted to do something different. I might build two different Selvala decks now. RIP wallet.
September 21, 2015 3:49 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #18
Well, stax is the most competitive way to build her. It is also the most obnoxious. I'm currently working on a stax list with a different commander for when I'm against more competitive players.
I'm doing this knowing I will not be able to play the deck in any casual game without feeling like a huge asshole and making it so those people won't play with me anymore. Stax is the most hated deck type in the format.
ComradeJim270 says... #2
One warning about Selvala. Some people will suggest she's a good casual commander because opponents will like drawing cards and not want to attack you. In some playgroups this is true. In others, the entire table will gang up on you and try to murder you or at the very least ensure Selvala never stays on the board.
Be prepared for both possibilities.
September 20, 2015 4:32 a.m.