I recently heard that we don't announce a target until resolution - Is that true?
Asked by TypicalTimmy 10 months ago
I heard this recently and now I am wondering if I have been playing the game wrong this whole time, or if the information presented to me was incorrect.
Suppose I have Murder in hand, and my opponent has a problematic creature I want gone. I go to cast Murder.
The claim goes that putting Murder on the stack only acknowledges that a spell is waiting to resolve. That when it actually DOES resolve is when I choose my target. The argument claims that telling my opponent(s) what my intended target is ahead of the spell resolving is a case of "additional free information".
- An example of additional free information would be the following: You have a Swamp on the battlefield. You play a Rakdos Carnarium and bounce the Swamp back to hand. On your following turn, you play a Swamp for turn. An astute observer will notice that this Swamp has different artwork from the one you had bounced, meaning you have at least one land in hand. If you only have 2 cards in hand at this point, your opponent(s) now know at least 1 is a basic land, by default.
So, back to the question. I have Murder on the stack. My opponent asks who I am aiming to kill. I decide to say nothing. My opponent freaks out and says I am cheating or whatever. The game grinds to a halt and people are mad.
Alternatively, I tap my mana, pull Murder from my hand, motion it over Edgar Markov and say YEAH FUGG THAT GUY and my opponent goes "Uh, in response Sheltering Light."
Well. Crap.
But, Murder never resolved. I never had to say Edgar Markov was my target. I gave that information, freely. Had my opponent not known I was going to kill him, they might not have protected him.
So... who's correct?
- Do I not actually need to reveal a target until a spell or ability ACTUALLY resolves?
- Or do I need to reveal the intended target immediately, as the spell or ability moves ONTO the stack?
Rhadamanthus Where I get hung up is reflexive triggers. Grist, the Hunger Tide, Calibrated Blast, Heart-Piercer Manticore etc.
We only choose targets after the first part happens (I think), but can the opponent know that info before responding to it? The common practice I see, especially with Grist, is they'll choose targets immediately and sac a creature, but then the owner will protect the targeted creature.
May 30, 2023 2:45 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
The reflexive trigger creates a separate triggered ability that goes onto the stack independent of the ability that created it and follows all the normal rules for how to handle triggered abilities, including choosing targets, making responses etc. For each of those examples, the target is chosen when the reflexive trigger is put onto the stack.
There are different reasons for an effect to use a reflexive trigger.
- For Calibrated Blast, it's to make the card easier to use effectively and reduce feel-bads (it's a big oof to hit 5 on Erratic Explosion when you just targeted a 2/2 to be safe)
- If Heart-Piercer Manticore or Grist, the Hunger Tide used an "if you do" then you'd choose the target right away but your opponent would have to decide on their response before you decided whether or not to sacrifice anything
- If they wanted to make the sacrifice mandatory for Grist, it would need to say "As an additional cost to activate this ability..." due to the way loyalty abilities are templated, so the reflexive trigger here also saves words/space
May 30, 2023 3:50 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #4
So the people I heard this from were either misinformed, or trying to cheat?
May 30, 2023 4:05 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
It's probably just someone misunderstanding something that wasn't explained to them very well to begin with.
May 30, 2023 4:26 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #6
Could someone please cite the actual rules for this?
I don't want to mark the first reply as the answer, because I don't want to get into an argument that this is "just an opinion" or whatever if I show the person that.
I'd rather have the actual rule(s) at hand for this one.
Thanks.
May 30, 2023 4:41 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... Accepted answer #7
Comprehensive Rules Section 601 covers casting spells. Rules 601.2a–d covers the proposal of the spell including choices of targets (601.2c).
601.2c: The player announces their choice of an appropriate object or player for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a kicker cost) or a particular mode was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. Similarly, a spell may require alternative targets only if an alternative or additional cost was chosen for it. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets they will choose before they announce those targets. In some cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spell’s text. Once the number of targets the spell has is determined, that number doesn’t change, even if the information used to determine the number of targets does. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that they obey the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can’t be chosen as a target. The chosen objects and/or players each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those objects and/or players become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they’ll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
May 30, 2023 6:10 p.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #9
(meant to comment on this when I saw it the day it was posted, but forgot by the time I had time to comment on it)
It is almost assuredly that someone in this scenario is misunderstanding something they heard about permanents that have ETBs that target. Declaring a target as you cast Oblivion Ring isn't required since the ETB targets, not the spell. So if someone has a Counterspell but not a Stifle you are giving them "additional free information" that matters.
June 4, 2023 4:02 a.m.
Also spells that say choose a creature instead of target creature don't target and you select the creature on resolution. Such as when you cast Duneblast you don't select which creature you are saving until it is resolving.
June 12, 2023 5:22 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #11
Woah wait really???
Oooh I wonder if I can make a jank deck to exploit that >:)))
June 12, 2023 5:27 p.m.
TypicalTimmy : yes. The gatherer rules text for Duneblast reads:
You decide which creature to spare as Duneblast resolves. This choice doesn't target the creature. If you don't choose a creature, then all creatures will be destroyed.
Which means you can target an opponents hexproof creature with a spell that says choose a creature or your own creature with Shroud.
If the word target isn't stated in the rules text, then the spell don't target (unless the rules for the permanent type state target- auras target when cast and so do equip abilities when activated).
Rhadamanthus says... #1
If a spell has targets, you MUST choose all targets as part of casting it. Everyone knows what the targets are when they get their chance to make a response.
When you're casting a spell / activating an ability / putting a triggered ability on the stack, you must make the necessary choices for modes, targets, the value of X, whether to pay optional additional/alternative costs, distributions, and a few other things (see the CR section on casting spells for more details). Any decisions that aren't made there are made as the spell/ability resolves. In the example you brought up with Rakdos Carnarium, you don't have to decide which specific land to return to your hand until the triggered ability resolves (it doesn't have any targets, so you don't need to choose when it first goes onto the stack).
May 30, 2023 11:47 a.m.